WOJ search for Uriel/Odin deal for Murphy.

[Mira]

She had just as much devout faith in being a cop, but she compromised on that alot in Ghost Story and beyond.

Murphy's faith started going off the rails when she got canned from the police department, actually maybe earlier with her two failed marriages.  Her devout faith went somewhere else when she briefly was a KoC at C.I, she didn't like being a holy sock puppet..  She totally lost it when the assumption was made based on pretty good evidence that Harry was dead.  She then proclaimed herself the custodian of the Swords, and when the real custodian, by that I mean the guy to whom a couple of KoCs actually handed their Swords to returned, she claimed to have better judgement than he did, but no faith in the Lord's judgement speaking through His Knights.. Then she got a Sword smashed because she thought she knew better than the rules governing it's use and passed judgement on Nic... Yeah, it turned out okay, but no thanks to her.. So in a word, her "devout" faith has been in the toilet for some time.

Uriel and Vadderung are colleagues. If an Archangel tells someone whose devout that she'd still be fighting the good fight. Thats the next best thing from mission from God. Which she already turned down when she didn't pick up the Sword.

Actually I don't think Uriel has much say at all in the matter, free will, is free will.  Not sure if the same rules relating to free will apply to Odin or not.. Either way, I think Murphy did make a free choice, she believes she stays in the fight as an Einherjaar and will be able to continue to fight along side of Harry, something she doesn't think she could do along side of her father helping Uriel.

Murphy had been working with and alongside Einherjaar for awhile. She has respect for them as warriors. Besides I doubt she'd just serve blindly faithful.

She may believe that, but the Einherjaar are Odin's warriors, his soldiers, as such, they follow orders. Unless some huge exception is made for her, I doubt she will be given a lot of options when she gets orders..

I think there actually *is* a WOJ about her being a pain to Vadderung same way Harry is to Mab. iirc.

Maybe, I would like to see that WoJ if you can find it, just what he said..  I doubt they will be the same, Harry is Mab's Winter Knight, the go to guy.. As an Einherjaar, Murphy is just one of many, and since the Einherjaar don't seem to have any "powers" aside from being kick ass warriors I doubt she'd be much of a pain in the ass to Odin, other than giving him a verbal hard time.

[SerScot]

She had just as much devout faith in being a cop, but she compromised on that alot in Ghost Story and beyond.

Uriel and Vadderung are colleagues. If an Archangel tells someone whose devout that she'd still be fighting the good fight. Thats the next best thing from mission from God. Which she already turned down when she didn't pick up the Sword.

Murphy had been working with and alongside Einherjaar for awhile. She has respect for them as warriors. Besides I doubt she'd just serve blindly faithful.

I think there actually *is* a WOJ about her being a pain to Vadderung same way Harry is to Mab. iirc.

I’d like to… see… that.  Murphy has always been one of my favorite characters.  I hate to see her death as something of a “fridging” event.  I’d like confirmation that she continues the fight on the other side. 

I don’t understand the hard and fast “rule” about the new Einherjar/Valkeries not being allowed to see their loved ones. 

The thing that does bother me is Murphy ending up working directly for… or taking orders from John Marcone.  While he has morals… it has always been clear that he sees himself as a “monster”. 

[Mira]

The thing that does bother me is Murphy ending up working directly for… or taking orders from John Marcone.  While he has morals… it has always been clear that he sees himself as a “monster”.

Aside from the guilt/responsiblity he feels about the little girl that got shot years ago and remains in a vegetative state, he isn't a very nice man.  Working for Vadderung gave Murphy purpose, even if it meant also working for Marcone, something she hadn't had since she left the police force.

I don’t understand the hard and fast “rule” about the new Einherjar/Valkeries not being allowed to see their loved ones.

Einherjar and Valkeries are not the same thing.. The rule is a kindness actually for both the living and the dead.  Odin wants his warriors to be loyal to him and not to those who they loved when alive.  It is also a kindness to the living, imagine seeing your loved one but knowing at the same time they are dead to you.

[Con]

HAAH! I am the master of WOJ Google Fu!

Took me an hour of searching through youtube transcripts before I remembered to check a chat I'm on Discord. Found it in five seconds.

WOJ: "My first question was: "Since Murphy has recently become a just mostly dead Einherjar, how likely do you see it that she, given her personality and love for Harry, would be content to abide by the „until she has passed out of living memory“ rule and not try to subvert it in some way?"

His answer: Does Murphy strike you as someone to just follow along with such a rule? Of course she will try to subvert it somehow."

Edit: Credit to Magnuskin he posted it from a panel from Denmark. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,54936.0.html

[Mira]

HAAH! I am the master of WOJ Google Fu!

Took me an hour of searching through youtube transcripts before I remembered to check a chat I'm on Discord. Found it in five seconds.

WOJ: "My first question was: "Since Murphy has recently become a just mostly dead Einherjar, how likely do you see it that she, given her personality and love for Harry, would be content to abide by the „until she has passed out of living memory“ rule and not try to subvert it in some way?"

His answer: Does Murphy strike you as someone to just follow along with such a rule? Of course she will try to subvert it somehow."

Edit: Credit to Magnuskin he posted it from a panel from Denmark. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,54936.0.html

 Key word, try.  Thanks for taking the time to look it up!  Sounds like Jim is covering his behind and hasn't decided.  Actually, Murphy is all dead and has gone to Valhalla. However there are reasons for the rule, Murphy may figure a way around it, but me thinks there will be consequences that in the end will only cause more pain for Harry.

[g33k]

... I don’t understand the hard and fast “rule” about the new Einherjar/Valkeries not being allowed to see their loved ones... 

As noted, Valkyries & Enherjaren are different.
No sign that Murphy is on the "Valk Track."

Einherjaren are generally not allowed reincarnation "within living memory."  Dunno if this is a rule Odin imposes; or part of TWG's rules for Odin to have Soulfire; or what...

Hypothetically, however:  I can envision all sorts of Bad Outcomes if people thought they had found a reliable means of reincarnation, a way to be with their Lost Love again, etc etc etc...
 

[Mira]

Einherjaren are generally not allowed reincarnation "within living memory."  Dunno if this is a rule Odin imposes; or part of TWG's rules for Odin to have Soulfire; or what...

  Depends on who Gard was talking about when she said it was a rule;
page 366 Battle Ground

Gard said, " Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her.  That is a limit not even the Allfather may cross."

Sounds like a cosmic rule to me, because Gard spoke of a limit not even Odin can cross.  Not unlike I think Mab was talking about when at the end of Ghost Story she told Harry that death was a spectrum, that there was a point on the spectrum where one cannot return, but he hadn't reached that point yet.  Harry was only mostly dead, he fell into Mab's arms before he reached that point.

Murphy however is all dead,  she has passed that point on the spectrum.. She cannot be brought back as Enherjaren, till she has passed out of living memory..  I think so she isn't confused with Lazarus who had passed that spectrum but was brought back by Jesus, or Jesus Himself. I think  Osiris also returned from being all dead as well and was the Egyptian god of resurrection. 

So are cosmic rules broken to bring her back?  Is she so important to everything that Odin would cross the line to bring her back?  And if he does, what are the consequences to him as well as her?

[The_Sibelis]

  sooo I'ma make a nice lil theory based of this conversation

(click to show/hide)

Harry/Murphy get around the limitations in MM, using the cross dimensional method of MM Harry summoning dead Harry's combined with Odinmancy. Nobody in another dimension remembers OUR Murphy at all see... Cosmic rules, loophole.

[g33k]

sooo I'ma make a nice lil theory based of this conversation

(click to show/hide)

Harry/Murphy get around the limitations in MM, using the cross dimensional method of MM Harry summoning dead Harry's combined with Odinmancy. Nobody in another dimension remembers OUR Murphy at all see... Cosmic rules, loophole.

Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.

[The_Sibelis]

Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.

what people? She's going with Dresden. Her whole crisis of faith revolved around Dresden and she came to believe in HIM. He ain't gonna call her and then just go home without her lol. There's a complicated set of circumstances I could see.. but that'd just be telling lol.
On Murphy's faith tho, she believes in fighting the good fight, period. Dresden just exists anywhere the most important battle is happening. She ain't going to stop fighting that fight, even compromising lesser values to work with people like Marcone to get the job done. Go to anywhere in Murphy's arc all the way back to the short story that started it all. She doesn't care if it's not her business, out of her league or outside her jurisdiction. She's there to throw hands and pass judgement on anyone she's perceived deserves it. Craptastic MM world with Evil Dresden running amok with necromancy and Blamp allies? Gonna tell me Dresden ain't gonna call her up and say,"hey, I can get you this corporeal form, can you help?" And 1 Dresden 2 Battle. Ain't no way she's gonna be sidelined on that offer.

[Mira]

Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.

Not to mention, that Murphy doesn't belong in this dimension, so who knows what kind of consequences there would be if that happened.  Also she isn't the same Murphy in both dimensions, unless Jim uses the Spock loophole as per the original classic Trek story... However even if she had the same values as the other Murphy, while she may fight for justice in her dimension she cannot cross over to one she doesn't belong in.  So maybe a nice lovey dovey interlude for Harry, but he has to go back to his own dimension and leave her behind.  Doesn't do a thing for his grief nor his depression, and he needs to be sharp for the coming BAT.

[The_Sibelis]

..... I always think you fail to grasp what I'm actually saying but choose to respond to what you THINK I said. But that Murphy coming here is... Acceptable.
However, your failing to combine the MM Harry method of cross dimensional summoning with basic revival. He'd be drawing her ghost across space and time(from the nether, the NN, an all the fun interconnected stuff) before reviving the original timeline Murphy in a timeline where literally nobody actually knows her besides him. And then they go home.
Murphy part of the once and future king trope, she's coming back(there's 3 I realize, same way the split always happens) that's not up for debate so much, Dresden breaks rules, that is not only known but directly connected by woj to this topic. 🤷‍♂️ Believe you-me, I DARE NOT say anything here unless I've already covered my ASP when I post it. It gets right asinine when I post a non connected theory and the first thing that happens is "no" "nice but actktually" followed by opinions on the theory. Like frfr, you can't stop it, I usually don't care, and that one in one million neurodivergent person who might actually hold the conversation I want to have is scared away by the insueing 💩 storms. Hence why the neurov left, specifically. It's not unknown here at all.
I'm going to insist on pointing out it's silliness every time.. I can post pics to a basic FB conversation devolving because of this direct thing
Yes, it was all very smart and good of you to defuse the other day Geek, because I am on the defensive sub routines. But do examine what keeps putting me there please and thank you. 👀

[g33k]

what people? She's going with Dresden. Her whole crisis of faith revolved around Dresden and she came to believe in HIM. He ain't gonna call her and then just go home without her lol ...

Her.
People.
The sprawling Murphy clan, who we saw at the picnic; fellow cops (specially those in SI); the many Mirrorverse people who are counting on her (which as a cop, is all of Mirror-Chicago).

Mirrorverse is a darker, more-dangerous place than DF-Prime is.  Murphy wouldn't be so selfish as to abandon those people to that darkness and danger.

Mirror-Murphy likely does NOT believe in Dresden; she's fighting the Good Fight, and Mirror-Dresden is evil... is one of the enemies she's fighting (I expect Jim to torment Harry with "it's his lost love Murphy... but she doesn't trust Harry Dresden as far as she could throw him" (as an aikidoka, she can throw him surprisingly far!))

Mirror!Harry began diverging from our Harry as of Grave Peril, IIRC; that's book 3, and Murphy hadn't really begun to trust Harry yet (which book was it where she broke his tooth?).

By the time of Mirror Mirror, that Harry is a serial-killer of alt-Harry's, and one of Harry's firm allies is... Mavra (da'fuq??!?).  This is not someone who has Murphy's trust, admiration, affection, or loyalty.

[The_Sibelis]

Heh, heh, ha, ha hhhhhaaaaa? She abandons "her people" every time she chooses to risk her life, when she chooses to be a cop in spite of her families desire. Every battle, every fight... Was she at the Murphy homestead, or even her own during the battle of Chicago? No. She was with dresden fighting the good fight where she saw it needed fighting. You say she wouldn't abandon "her people", I say she does so actively with every choice she makes in the series. She outgrew her family before we even saw, and actively outgrew her position at S.I, then legal enforcement(she's been a vigilant for how long now?), her morals to work with Marcone, ect. Only thing she hasn't given up on was Dresden, even when he died 👀 and her will to fight.
And I'm not really sure why MM Murphy matters to my original theory but..
Ahhh, but if you paid attention to the divergence, then you noticed original Murphy path without Dresden was not good. she was filled with erranous judgements and preconceived attitudes that didn't balance out. MM her without Dresdens positive influence...(he brought her into the loop for SK)Isn't going to be entirely good per say even if she's fighting against evil. I expect her to end up a corpse by the end of the book quite frankly with all the implications that implies.

[g33k]

Heh, heh, ha, ha hhhhhaaaaa? She abandons "her people" every time she chooses to risk her life, when she chooses to be a cop in spite of her families desire...

No; going out into the world to "fight the good fight" is NOT abandoning her people.  We have to do things contrary to the desires of our loved ones on a daily basis, "for their own good."  Parents go earn a living -- sometimes 2-3 jobs -- despite how little they see their kids, keeping food on the table and trying to set the kids up for a better life than the parents had.

(and for what it's worth -- for all it's a rhetorical affectation, the whole "laughing at" posture is more than a little offensive, and I'd appreciate you dialing that back a bit)

... I expect her to end up a corpse by the end of the book quite frankly with all the implications that implies.

That seems entirely possible.
Jim's livelihood depends on him tormenting Harry, after all.

OTOH, I think he got more fan-hate for killing Murphy than for anything else he wrote.  So "bringing her back" as fanservice might be a choice he makes, to avoid a "salt in the wounds" effect on his fandom.