Q&A Fantasyfestival 2023 in Esbjerg/Denmark

[magnuskn]

  Thank you, my point..    Also give thought as to why you love her so much and if you'd still love her after all these twists and turns to bring her back?  That's my problem with the character, I liked her when she was a good,strong,smart cop who worked with Harry, kept him on his toes and was a good friend as well as a critic.  I think her previous reasons stated to him for not wanting their friendship to be more in I think was Proven Guilty are still valid.  I began to have problems with her once she was fired and Jim didn't know quite what to do with her.  I still don't think he does, while the idea of turning her into Mab or a Valkyrie may be appealing to those who want her back.. My response is, really?  She won't be Murphy anymore because her perspective won't be what it once was.  It changes everything, not unlike Ivy/Archive, when Ivy was a little girl her relationship with both Harry and Kincaid was very different from what it is now as young adult, Ivy, the Archive..  I loved the old relationships as well, but they had to change to be believable. Why? Because the perspective of a more mature Ivy changed, she sees both Harry and Kincaid differently.

People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.

I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.

So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.

[Mira]

People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.

  However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.

I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.

There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out.  However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are.  Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other.  So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman.  There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken.  If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.

So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.

Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved.  True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.

[g33k]

... There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them...

The "power" the KotS's have isn't exactly personal power, no.  It's the "power" to not be overwhelmed or overmatched by any degree of supernatural power, no matter how huge that power is.

But it's not exactly not personal power, either.

[magnuskn]

  However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out.  However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are.  Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other.  So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman.  There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken.  If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved.  True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.

Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.

[LaraBeck]

Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.

100% agree with this take above.

However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.

If Harry went through all of that and we can say he didn't "change", sure that's a valid thing to say. Though to be honest, people evolve and change according to circumstances they live through, I don't think it's just a matter of the physical parts (ie being a wizard or human, etc), that's such a limiting view, but ymmv.

Anyway, we can only say he's still him because we've seen him after each and every one of those "challenges" or "transformations" coming out victorious, so to speak, still himself. We have not seen Murphy after her "transformation", so how would it be possible to be so sure that she won't be herself? Because of the physical aspect? That doesn't hold up.

Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved.  True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.

Maybe not the one you loved/liked, if you ever did, because clearly you see her differently than some of us, but this is a repeat argument from 3 years ago, with no evidence to support it. We have not seen the aftermath for Murphy yet, and nothing similar is touched on the mythos of the series yet, so, how she comes back, if she even does, "changed" or not, is still mostly a mystery until future books.

And even if she changed, I dunno why it wouldn't be something the fans of hers wouldn't want? Why assume the change would be a bad one in the first place? But even if it was, Harry has taken blow after blow, jobs and mantles on himself and he's, let's say "evolved" not necessarily in a positive way, he's extremely flawed at this point, but for most fans, it seems, it has made him more interesting. Murphy fans will know if maybe the same applies to her.

[Mira]

And even if she changed, I dunno why it wouldn't be something the fans of hers wouldn't want? Why assume the change would be a bad one in the first place? But even if it was, Harry has taken blow after blow, jobs and mantles on himself and he's, let's say "evolved" not necessarily in a positive way, he's extremely flawed at this point, but for most fans, it seems, it has made him more interesting. Murphy fans will know if maybe the same applies to her.

In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore..  No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.

[LaraBeck]

In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore..  No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.

In any case, we'll see, the series isn't over yet. And if my opinion of her doesn't matter, obviously neither does yours.

[magnuskn]

Moreover, Murphy already has gone through big of personal outlook (and position in life) during the last five books and she still was Murphy at her core.

[Mira]

In any case, we'll see, the series isn't over yet. And if my opinion of her doesn't matter, obviously neither does yours.

 I, for one never said your opinion doesn't matter, it does, and you are entitled to it.. I just disagree with the idea, and attempt to support why I do so. I am also entitled to my opinion, it also matters, that's how it works..

Moreover, Murphy already has gone through big of personal outlook (and position in life) during the last five books and she still was Murphy at her core.

Is she? Is that even a good thing? Don't know, maybe it would be. She has been murdered in a stupid way by a guy that is arguably insane, but still last we heard an influential member of law enforcement.  That might change her just a bit..  Now granted that might be an interesting read, but we won't be reading about the Murphy you think you know. That's just an opinion..

[g33k]

In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore..  No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.

Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.

And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.

But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.

[magnuskn]

Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.

And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.

But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.

Yeah, I don't see either why she suddenly would stop being Murphy, only because her circumstances have changed. A person is defined by her outlook on life, how she treats with others, how she feels about herself. While some of those facets would of course be altered by dying and being brought back (Harry sure did have to adjust), at her core Murphy would still be herself.

[Mira]

But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.

  No, I'm arguing that there is a good chance she won't be.. I am also questioning what do her fans want her to be? What was it they loved about her before and what if that aspect of her changes will they still be happy?  There are different forces playing with her this time.. Also as far as her "core" goes, Nic called that one into question when he tricked her into breaking a Holy Sword.  Yes, I know it all worked out, but....  I always thought at her core, Murphy was a police officer, their job is to arrest the bad guys, but it is up to a judge and jury to judge, convict, and to punish.. The Holy Swords work the same way, she even said she couldn't be a Knight because she couldn't not judge the Denarians.. Very honest and Murphy, but then when she thinks Harry is in danger, she whips out the Sword, which apparently she had anticipated,so doing something she said she wouldn't do, put the Sword in danger because of her beliefs and why she said Harry couldn't be trusted to be their custodian.. Then when she has Nic on the ropes seemingly, instead of calling his bluff and accepting his surrender, the noose, and the coin, she plays judge as he anticipated, and breaks the Sword and gets her butt totally kicked.. So what messed with her core here? Love for Harry, yeah, a good thing, but it proves that her core values can be shattered. 

That little bit of backsliding that could have ended in disaster, [yeah, I know it didn't] has never been discussed between Harry and Murphy.  He discussed it somewhat with Michael, but not Murphy.  Does she feel any guilt over her major screw up? Question any of her actions? Or because it turned out okay in the end with Butters getting a Holy Light Saber she can rationalize it away? Because what she did, she did out of love, well sort of, until she played judge and jury to execute Nic. Which also failed I might add.  I think that would be interesting, mainly because she often plays the wise one in any talk her and Harry have...

[Mira]

Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.

Yes, well, he was mostly dead... He managed to fight both with his stronger than average will.

And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.

Yup, why you ask?  Because he is a star born, he is also a wizard, he isn't an ordinary vanilla human.. At his core he is a star born powerful wizard, now events might outwardly change him, but at his core, what doesn't change is he is a star born powerful wizard.. That gives him a stronger than average will, which so far has kept most of his values in tact.. Recognized by Heaven apparently because he was gifted with Soul Fire.

But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.

Really?  She was an ordinary vanilla human at her core, love, hate, the whole nine yards..  She has been stupidly murdered, she was then selected to be a member of the Valhalla club to fight for Odin in the final battle.. What is her emotional make up these days?  So the Einherjar, the plural of Einheri, literally 'army of one', so they're the most fearsome and brutal of warriors according to Google.  So do Einherjar even have an emotional core?  You honestly believe that Murphy won't change? 

As the old proverb goes, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it..."  That goes for Harry as well, he may wish her back, be glad at first to see Murphy come back, but in the end wish that she had been allowed to rest in peace.

[g33k]

... Also as far as her "core" goes, Nic called that one into question when he tricked her into breaking a Holy Sword ...

No.

Nic tricked her into making Esperacchius vulnerable.
It was Nic who actually broke the blade.

But please note:  the Leanansidhe similarly tricked Harry into making Amoracchius vulnerable; this was every bit as much a violation of Harry's own ethics for himself, as it was for Murphy.

[magnuskn]

As the old proverb goes, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it..."  That goes for Harry as well, he may wish her back, be glad at first to see Murphy come back, but in the end wish that she had been allowed to rest in peace.

The point here is, Murphy was able to see beyond the very suspicious behaviour Harry was exhibiting in Skin Game (which Butters couldn't, but listed out very succinctly), because she trusted that Harry was still, at his core, the same person. I can't see Harry not doing the same if Murphy comes back with some minor changes in her outlook. I'm confident that at her core, she'll still be the same person, just as Harry is still the same guy from book one where it counts.