Author Topic: Book of Kremmler  (Read 7434 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2023, 10:08:04 AM »
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According to Harry, I think she was.

  However Harry is always claiming that this foe or that was stronger than him.  Yet even with a pissed off fallen angel at her disposal, he kicked her ass.  Odd, don't you think?  Considering when Harry had Lasciel's Shadow in his head, and went for the Hell Fire, no, I doubt that she was ever that strong to begin with.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2023, 11:03:19 AM »
Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2023, 12:58:01 PM »
Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.

 I don't think Harry is a neuromancer..  He charmed the Little Folk by appreciating their service to him by rewarding them with something they value, pizza. He also valued them as beings when he insisted that they be freed from captivity by the White Court. None of that has anything to do with neuromancy.

He has a stronger will than most, I think that it is part of his star born make up.. Once he understood that Lasciel's shadow was in his head and her plan, he resisted with his will and was able to use her power where possible, though he did put himself in danger of going over the line at times.  He renamed her, and by his decency won her over, you can call that seduction, but not neuromancy..

What pissed Hannah off was when he reversed the Red King's generational curse, it killed all the Red Court Vamps off and that part of humans who were half turned.  A lot of her friends were fighting for the resistance it was true, but many of them had been doing it for many years because the vamp part of them kept them from growing old.  However when the vamp part of them died, the human part became whatever age he or she was, and many simply died of old age.. That had nothing to do with neuromancy.

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2023, 05:17:17 PM »
Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.
I don't think Harry is particularly talented with neuromancy; he's got a REALLY strong will, though, so even a very-strong neuromancer finds him to be a hard target.

Most of what you're talking about, though, is another of Harry's stronger talents -- he's a world-class snarkomancer.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2023, 05:46:27 PM »
I don't think Harry is particularly talented with neuromancy; he's got a REALLY strong will, though, so even a very-strong neuromancer finds him to be a hard target.

Most of what you're talking about, though, is another of Harry's stronger talents -- he's a world-class snarkomancer.

Yeah, that last one usually backfires on him.. ::)

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2023, 04:54:15 AM »
Yeah, that last one usually backfires on him.. ::) 
mmmm.... kindasortamaybe?
I mean... it very-often causes the BadGuys(tm) to make stupid mistakes.
(that's why CT, above, mistook it for neuromancy)

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2023, 08:31:08 AM »
His battle with Eb is what I had in mind, he was up against a more powerful and experienced opponent, he defeated him by using neuromancy to provoke a ‘lethal’ attack on his decoy whilst he got to do what he intended to do.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2023, 01:13:28 PM »
mmmm.... kindasortamaybe?
I mean... it very-often causes the BadGuys(tm) to make stupid mistakes.
(that's why CT, above, mistook it for neuromancy)

  That's true, it is also called taunting, which really isn't neuromancy, because the bad guy wasn't forced by mind control to make those stupid mistakes, they just have a short temper, and have no control when they lose it.  It backfires when Harry manages to really piss off a bad guy who keeps in control while pissed off and Harry gets his butt kicked.
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His battle with Eb is what I had in mind, he was up against a more powerful and experienced opponent, he defeated him by using neuromancy to provoke a ‘lethal’ attack on his decoy whilst he got to do what he intended to do.
No, Harry did not tinker with Eb's mind in any way.  Harry knew before hand that Eb was way stronger than himself, he knew that Eb was very capable of squashing him like a bug in any fight.  So with Molly's help he made a copy of himself to do the fighting and get killed, while he tried to get away with Thomas.  Harry didn't tinker with Eb's mind in any way, it was Eb's own prejudices against vampires and the fact that his own daughter had a child by Lord Raith that blinded him to the point where he would have killed his own beloved grandson over it.

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2023, 04:51:45 PM »
Neuromancy means to do it without mind control, no breach of the laws involved. Harry has never used magic in the examples I have given and yet was able to make a profound change in the attitude of a magical being, often one protected from the type of overt magical manipulation. Sometimes the best magic is not to use magic, in the same way Harry defeated Puck, it was either luck (and this is Harry we are talking about) or sleight of hand taught him by Malcom, or using the Roman candles in SG. Harry can think outside the ‘magic’ box.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2023, 06:32:45 PM »
Neuromancy means to do it without mind control, no breach of the laws involved. Harry has never used magic in the examples I have given and yet was able to make a profound change in the attitude of a magical being, often one protected from the type of overt magical manipulation. Sometimes the best magic is not to use magic, in the same way Harry defeated Puck, it was either luck (and this is Harry we are talking about) or sleight of hand taught him by Malcom, or using the Roman candles in SG. Harry can think outside the ‘magic’ box.

It is a title of a science fiction novel and has no real meaning at all.

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2023, 09:38:54 AM »
I read Neuromancer when it was first published. Mab used the term “Neuromancy” in Battle Ground so she considers it to be a valid field of magic. Granny Weatherwax would have used the term Headology, both rely upon manipulating an individuals free will, without infringing upon than free will.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2023, 10:54:29 AM »
I read Neuromancer when it was first published. Mab used the term “Neuromancy” in Battle Ground so she considers it to be a valid field of magic. Granny Weatherwax would have used the term Headology, both rely upon manipulating an individuals free will, without infringing upon than free will.

  Mab may have used the term, but what Harry did in Battle Ground did infringe on free will.  Whatever Mab thinks of it is not relevant really.. You cannot manipulate free will and not be infringing on it.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2023, 02:54:48 PM »
  Mab may have used the term, but what Harry did in Battle Ground did infringe on free will.  Whatever Mab thinks of it is not relevant really.. You cannot manipulate free will and not be infringing on it.

How did Harry infringe on free will? Here's a paraphrase of that interaction:

Harry: Toot, Monsters are coming to destroy the city!
Toot: And?
Harry: They're going to try to kill me!
Toot: So a typical day?
Harry: And they'll destroy all the pizza shops!
Toot: Oh hell freaking no!! It's on like Donkey Kong!!

Harry simply found a way to motivate his vassals to give their all.

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2023, 05:14:24 PM »
Autocorrect turned didn’t into did. Harry doesn’t infringe upon free will, he merely gets you to change your mind or act rashly, but in the end it is your decision.

His now fearsome reputation following BG gives Harry a new weapon in his armoury of neuromancy, he tried it on Nameless, and it should have worked, however I think it didn’t because Nameless is Cowl and he is unlikely to be cow(l)ed by any neuromancy on Harry’s part until Harry knows more about his dual identity and motivations.

Oh well, it seems to work on the Merlin.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2023, 01:17:08 AM »
How did Harry infringe on free will? Here's a paraphrase of that interaction:

Harry: Toot, Monsters are coming to destroy the city!
Toot: And?
Harry: They're going to try to kill me!
Toot: So a typical day?
Harry: And they'll destroy all the pizza shops!
Toot: Oh hell freaking no!! It's on like Donkey Kong!!

Harry simply found a way to motivate his vassals to give their all.

That's called leadership, compelling people to fight under the influence of some kind of magical banner is messing with their free will..