Goodman Grey, nemfected?

[Mira]

She could lie, she could disobey Mab, doubtless this is how Mab deduced her nemfection.

 Could she?  Would it have made any difference?  Maeve lied as well, but Mab didn't notice anything until it was too late.  And in the end Lea couldn't disobey Mab, the infestation hadn't gone that far, Mab realized something was off and Lea confessed everything and gave up the Knife and went into ice rehab.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Maeve was her daughter, a known rebel within Winter Law

[g33k]

She could lie, she could disobey Mab, doubtless this is how Mab deduced her nemfection.

The fae love to deceive.

But... when did Lea actually lie?
I don't recall that she did.

Similarly, I don't recall that she ever disobeyed a direct order from Mab; worked against the spirit or the intent, sure!  But Mab chose Lea specifically to be a challenge, to keep herself sharp by honing herself on Lea's resistance.

Maybe that all happened offscreen...?

We know that Nemfection can let the nemfected break rules... Maeve absolutely reveled in the ability to lie.  We don't -- AFAIK -- know that it's always the same rule-breaking for all entities.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

You don’t deceive Mab, not if you are Winter.

Yes it likely happened off screen for dramatic reasons, we first learn of Leas Nemfection when Harry comes across her imprisoned and she pleads with him to release her. As readers we are deliberately given no clue.

[vincentric]

You don't deceive Mab in the long term. But she's not omniscient and you can get things over in short term.

Lea and Maeve were both Nemfected, It didn't take Mab long to discover it, but a lot of damage was done.

Harry's suicide was successful and would have been permanent if not for Ivy's threat to Kincaid and Mab going to extraordinary measures to save him. She was actually pleased with the attempt.

[g33k]

You don't deceive Mab in the long term. But she's not omniscient and you can get things over in short term.

Lea and Maeve were both Nemfected, It didn't take Mab long to discover it, but a lot of damage was done.

Harry's suicide was successful and would have been permanent if not for Ivy's threat to Kincaid and Mab going to extraordinary measures to save him. She was actually pleased with the attempt.

Yes; all of this.

[Mira]

Harry's suicide was successful and would have been permanent if not for Ivy's threat to Kincaid and Mab going to extraordinary measures to save him. She was actually pleased with the attempt.

 But was it really?  Interesting that it was a shot to the heart and not the head, death wasn't instant was it? That he fell into ice cold water that would immediately begin to cool his body and slow things down, that he just happened to fall into Mab's waiting arms. If he had fallen onto the deck, he would have quickly bled out.  Harry was never all dead, he was mostly dead, which is slightly alive. Uriel wanted to teach Harry a lesson, and Mab felt she had no choice but to go along knowing it was a risk because "death is a spectrum".  Ivy was pissed because Harry would think of doing such a thing, and more pissed at Kincaid because he'd go along with it.  It is my opinion that both Mab and Uriel anticipated what Harry was going to do and acted accordingly.

[RobReece]

Harry was never all dead, he was mostly dead, which is slightly alive.

Perfect

[vincentric]

But was it really?  Interesting that it was a shot to the heart and not the head, death wasn't instant was it? That he fell into ice cold water that would immediately begin to cool his body and slow things down, that he just happened to fall into Mab's waiting arms. If he had fallen onto the deck, he would have quickly bled out.  Harry was never all dead, he was mostly dead, which is slightly alive. Uriel wanted to teach Harry a lesson, and Mab felt she had no choice but to go along knowing it was a risk because "death is a spectrum".  Ivy was pissed because Harry would think of doing such a thing, and more pissed at Kincaid because he'd go along with it.  It is my opinion that both Mab and Uriel anticipated what Harry was going to do and acted accordingly.

Ivy forced Kincaid to make a chest shot and not a headshot. If Kincaid had done it with a headshot Harry would be DEAD dead. There wouldn't have been enough for Mab to save.

[g33k]

...
Harry's suicide was successful and would have been ...

  But was it really? ...

Yes, it was "successful," insofar as he arranged a fatal injury for himself, which happened.

If it had been most other people, they'd have died.

If Harry hadn't had other interested parties get involved (without his knowledge or consent), Harry himself would have died.

 

... Interesting that it was a shot to the heart and not the head, death wasn't instant was it? ...

We know Ivy's involvement, there.  And Mab, Uriel, Alfred after the fact... maybe before?

 

... That he fell into ice cold water that would immediately begin to cool his body and slow things down, that he just happened to fall into Mab's waiting arms. If he had fallen onto the deck, he would have quickly bled out.  ...

As you say.

It makes me wonder, whether beings like Mab... like frikkin' Uriel! ... really left that moment up to "chance."

Rock the boat at the right moment... a few Pixies dragging Harry's shoulders... a Nixie or Neriad actually  reaching on-board to grab him...  Was there really ever any chance of "if he had fallen onto the deck"?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Uriel would have known if the arrangements as an Intellectus, Mab wouldn’t, and he couldn’t intervene even to telling Mab, except that Harry was pushed to it by an infernal nudge. That was enough for him to intervene in relation to Harry’s spirit and warn Mab.

Demonreach would have known separately through his limited intellectus was over the Lake and Demonreach has been shown as extending his influence to the Lake Shore in BG. It was fortunate Harry wasn’t shot inland. Demonreach required Mab’s help to manifest in the Cemetery.

[Mira]

Yes, it was "successful," insofar as he arranged a fatal injury for himself, which happened.

  Since Harry lives, it wasn't successful, it was a failed attempt.  You can be successful in taking a fatal dose of sleeping pills, but if I come upon you in time and your stomach is pumped out and you live,it wasn't successful. Harry arranged what he thought would be a fatal injury to himself, and believed it was fatal up until the time he woke up in Mab's arms on Demonreach.  However Uriel and Mab had arranged it so it wouldn't be fatal, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have been as Mab admitted, there were risks with Uriel's plan.. If she had her way, the shot would never have been fired in the first place and Harry would be suffering the effects of a huge ice cube being shoved in a most uncomfortable place.

If Harry hadn't had other interested parties get involved (without his knowledge or consent), Harry himself would have died.

That is true, but the truth is he couldn't hide what he was planning from an archangel and the Winter Queen.  So they planned an intervention to stop him from killing himself.  However Uriel is a bit wiser than Mab and realizing that merely stopping Harry from killing himself wouldn't be effective because Harry still believed as Winter Knight he'd be Mab's monster.  So the Uriel version of "It's a Wonderful Life," Harry begins to realize some things, and Uriel's seven words had it's desired effect.

We know Ivy's involvement, there.  And Mab, Uriel, Alfred after the fact... maybe before?

Of course before, Uriel, Mab, and maybe even Alfred, intervened.  It was a close thing,and was meant to be a close thing between fatal and nearly fatal.  Heart shot, not a head shot, falling into the ice cold water verses falling on the deck, falling into Mab's waiting arms verses just falling in the water to drown, life saving fluids from the island itself that kept Harry in a coma, alive, oh and last but not least, the "parasite" who would become Bonny agreeing to act as a heart lung machine
during all of this.

It makes me wonder, whether beings like Mab... like frikkin' Uriel! ... really left that moment up to "chance."

I don't believe they did, careful reading of what Mab said to Harry after he woke up says they didn't.  She was still miffed at Uriel for taking such a chance with her Winter Knight in order to teach him a lesson, and I don't think it was his soul that she was worried about.

Rock the boat at the right moment... a few Pixies dragging Harry's shoulders... a Nixie or Neriad actually  reaching on-board to grab him...  Was there really ever any chance of "if he had fallen onto the deck"?

Not a chance in my opinion... And actually it fits with what Uriel said about "balance," Lasciel's words pushed Harry to suicide, so he was allowed to counter it.  There are rules, even though in some religions the taking of one's own life is a mortal sin, angels, even archangels are not allowed to interfere with human free will.  Lasciel's actions allowed Uriel to do just that, interfere with Harry's free will, he didn't allow Harry to kill himself.

Ivy forced Kincaid to make a chest shot and not a headshot. If Kincaid had done it with a headshot Harry would be DEAD dead. There wouldn't have been enough for Mab to save.

True, but why didn't Ivy just stop Kincaid from shooting Harry all together?  I wouldn't be shocked if Uriel had something to do with that as well.

[RobReece]

There was a question I'd had, the shot Kincaid took wasn't any past event written down or even discussed. How did Ivy know to even specify that it needed to be done that way.  Do we have any knowledge of interaction between Ivy and Mab or Mr. Sunshine?  Granted, she's a member of the Accords, and she's even older than Mab. At least her knowledge is.

If it weren't for that mini story, we could have written the "miss" off to Harry's slip throwing off Kincaid aim.

[Mira]

There was a question I'd had, the shot Kincaid took wasn't any past event written down or even discussed. How did Ivy know to even specify that it needed to be done that way.  Do we have any knowledge of interaction between Ivy and Mab or Mr. Sunshine?  Granted, she's a member of the Accords, and she's even older than Mab. At least her knowledge is.

If it weren't for that mini story, we could have written the "miss" off to Harry's slip throwing off Kincaid aim.

Good point, only way I can think of is Harry wrote Kincaid a check for the amount he agreed to pay him for assassinating him, then the Archive would have known something was up, and hence Ivy.  However my point still stands why didn't Ivy just stop the shooting all together?  Actually it might be possible that the Archive found out about Harry's plans first because of the check, let Uriel and Mab know, and Uriel convinced the Archive/Ivy to go along with his plan.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Ivy is a teenager at this point, so of course she was eavesdropping on her ‘parent’. Occam’s razor.