In Retrospect The Relevance Of Storm Front and Full Moon

[g33k]

yep, easily findable in the mab vs section in woj.vs the entire wamp court if would be tenuous victory, but whomever actually succeeded would effectively control winter. I'll look after work if you really can't find it.

We have different understandings of that WoJ!

No, a whampire couldn't just take out Mab; not under any circumstances.

If the entire White Court tried to take her down, they might be able to manage it, as a long-odds chance... with one particular Whamp being the "straw that broke the camels back" and that Whamp controlling Mab (and thus, Winter).

More likely, though, that she would end them.
 

[The_Sibelis]

We have different understandings of that WoJ!

No, a whampire couldn't just take out Mab; not under any circumstances.

If the entire White Court tried to take her down, they might be able to manage it, as a long-odds chance... with one particular Whamp being the "straw that broke the camels back" and that Whamp controlling Mab (and thus, Winter).

More likely, though, that she would end them.

all that's says is they'd need their combined weight to puncture her defenses. It's clear one winner on top though. Straw though they may be, they're the straw in control of mab, not the many who put their weight in the fight. You can find a clear comparison in Ethniu. Harry didn't take her alone, but HE took her and now he could potentially unleash her under his control.(nobody in the DF seems to dispute his victory)
I'd point out it's commonly accepted she was at least as strong as Mab.
🤔 I've not dealt with you enough to say, but so you know... Reading a woj describing an exact circumstance a Whamp COULD take followed by proclaiming our different understandings and then doing the baseline, my opinion of the facts presented differs so no that couldn't happen.. does feel like a much politer version of the same things I've had to deal with 😂 careful you're not falling into the same logical fallacy though. I respect forthrightness over politeness honestly. But telling someone something is wrong based on your interpretation requires at least correlative evidence of your interpretation.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Fae Courts were deliberately set up with the Queens as the most powerful beings roaming the mortal world, with the exception of Angels  and Archangels who have their own restriction. This suggests this is the proscription of the WG. Even their major vassals are not close, nor the semi-divine like the Naagloshii. Winter could face down a collection of most of the other nations, which is why the accords exist. The Red Court, Black Court, Fomor and White Court (Cowl’s original alliance ) couldn’t defeat Winter, he needed the Titan for an overwhelming victory. Harry killed the Red Court, reformed the White and ‘defeated’ the Black Court in Battle Ground. Cowl was also banking on Titania not becoming involved, Titania though hates Harry more than Mab now.

Everyone else stays in the NeverNever in voluntary exile, are dead, powered down or in involuntary exile in Demonreach. The exception was Ethnui, who now thanks to the actions of The WG’s champion is now in Demonreach.

I wonder if Namshiel has redeemed himself with the WG  in aiding Harry to enforces his proscription it certainly creates a wedge with the other Fallen.

[The_Sibelis]

The Fae Courts were deliberately set up with the Queens as the most powerful beings roaming the mortal world, with the exception of Angels  and Archangels who have their own restriction.

and considering we have one exception already that's completely uncountable for, it would appear your idea is in error as a totality. Loose threads that can't be explained and only ignored to make the theory valid.

The exception was Ethnui

one exception we don't have a solid answer for means we can't know if it's an exception or an unknown rule.🤔mmm in fact there are already several viable ones. Like the courts being sins would make them part of realities core, another reason TWG doesn't just expell them(same as demons even without the additional idea, they're part of the NN but don't follow respect free will accord's, or Mabs accord's apparently sometimes) and it seems to me this would also explain why she was so weak but an equal to Mab. She didn't come with titanic power even though she came in her guise as a Titan. She had the equivalent of the red courts power which equalled mab. Before the ramps died, when the fomor had less power to act in the real world apparently,(now they're making Kraken's with near impunity, changing things by force, growing from humans just like ramps,)she probably wasn't even there but in the NN. Fantastic discussion! Helped me close the loop in my own theory about it.
Oh and the courts couldn't really take on Winter when other players interfere to cripple them.

[g33k]

...  🤔 I've not dealt with you enough to say, but so you know... Reading a woj describing an exact circumstance a Whamp COULD take followed by proclaiming our different understandings and then doing the baseline, my opinion of the facts presented differs so no that couldn't happen.. does feel like a much politer version of the same things I've had to deal with 😂 careful you're not falling into the same logical fallacy though. I respect forthrightness over politeness honestly. But telling someone something is wrong based on your interpretation requires at least correlative evidence of your interpretation.

OK, here's where I'm coming from:

Your original post on this specific sub-tangent stated:

... Mab, if taken by a whamp, would actually be enslaved by it ...

This utterly lacks the contexts of:
 * a full-on assault from the entire White Court
 * the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Can a Ramp or Blamp even make Mab bleed? I doubt it, it took a Titan. It shocked everyone.

Same with Whamps. She would feed on them,not the other way round.

As regards power level someone is setting the rules, not unaccountable if they are working for the rule setter.

My guess Ethnui hid in the NeverNever pretending to be in voluntary exile.

[Mira]

This utterly lacks the contexts of:
 * a full-on assault from the entire White Court
 * the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").

Agreed, let's not forget how easily Lea put the vamp part of Susan to sleep.. Just a flick of her finger if I remember correctly, so yeah, I'd day that Mab beats any vamp, though I am not positive about Mavra.

[The_Sibelis]

OK, here's where I'm coming from:

Your original post on this specific sub-tangent stated:
This utterly lacks the contexts of:
 * a full-on assault from the entire White Court
 * the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").

ahh okay so I didn't think it needed context in that direction because that wasn't the point being made. The end result is the same. A whamp takes mab, they are in effect in control of Mab. The logistics of how they got there are not discussed because it wasn't relevant to what I was replying to. However, it still shows undisputed proof there is no inherent presumed mechanism stopping a whamp from taking mab or any other such being. Only the being themselves and the power they can muster against it. And as correlated with ethniu, a gased being is a gased being no matter how powerful. For the purpose of that discussion it didn't matter how the whamp gets there, only that it's proven they can indeed do so as a matter of mechanics. Give a whamp the dark hallow power boost, the mechanism of the whamp is now powerful enough to take her outright yes? Take into consideration any other sneaky way past her defenses, like blood, and it's not a proposed mechanism protecting her from being taken or controlled. Only her power and intellect.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Was the point being made.

A single Whamp even Papa Raith at his full power is far too weak. Drakul, considerably stronger than Mavra is no match for Mab. Neither is the Red King nearly cut down by Morgan. First the Ramps and Blamps have to get blood, that means approaching Mab with iron, or a Titans power. Mab would simply vaporise anyone trying the former the latter was unknown. Whamps don’t feed on lifeforce blood, so that route is attack is out  to them(unless a Whamp goes all Iron Druid and infuses his aura with iron.)

Trying to justify your original proposition by adding a Darkhallow to a Whamp is again magical thinking. Drakul has it and Harry and Cowl and that’s it. Drakul could power up with a Darkhallow to be more powerful than Mab as soon as he does he has the entire Accorded Nations on his back, so he will bide his time. Battle Ground was not that time.

[The_Sibelis]

Was the point being made.

yes indeed and despite all other discussion that point has not changed in the slightest even thou you seem to be erecting a straw man around my idea being a single whamp as is can take Mab? Here let's reiterate the points that you can't move that you seem to just ignore when it suits you. Mabs, of any other God is not protected from anything taking her power by any known mechanism besides their own Will against it and whatever they can muster from that. All other points are superfluous to that. Argue and "prove" whatever you want around that. The woj proves a singular wamp can indeed control mab just like a single wizard can take Ethniu and the composition of forces is what it'd take to wear her out to that point. Not that it in any way is prohibited by TWG having an unknown, presumed mechanism to stop it. Ignoring this and trying to harp on anything else to do with it is magical thinking indeed because it doesn't change simple fact put forth in woj. A straw can indeed take mab. 🤷‍♂️ The rest of my conversation doesn't matter at all. We've been through this before when you were MR D I'm pretty sure too man.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

There is nothing to support your contention rather than your own opinion. Several posters have pointed out WOJ and text which empirically contradict you opinion, but you keep ignoring fact over your opinion to continue to derail threads set up for a specific factual purpose. The thread was set up to look at how the first two books in retrospect advance the the schemes revealed in later books. The Fae and Mab and the White Court don’t even appear in the first two books. You have hijacked this thread to prevent a serious discussion.

 If you want to continue the airing of your opinions create your own thread on this point. I will be asking moderators to remove ALL the unrelated postings and put them in their thread.

[The_Sibelis]

I've already pointed out the logic and the connections. Ignore them 🤷‍♂️ other people can read for themselves. Several posters have been proven wrong. Geek even posted relevant woj and told you you need to rethink your position on mantles considering the evidence. They'll continue to be relevant counterpoints and valid theory regardless. I don't think I have to worry about them being removed in any case, and indeed conversations do lead elsewhere something rather commonly accepted.

[TheCuriousFan]

Not a mod but simmer down people.

[Serack]

Hi all, "Old Guard" here who is generally disengaged but I've still got mod status and a blown up in box. 

Take a moment to consider what life stresses you may be bringing into the conversation and how they may be influencing how you are interacting with the others here.  Those stresses are real, valid, and unfortunately are not alone in that people on the other side of the screen have just as real and valid ones that are influencing their interactions. 

Remembering some of the drama I saw flying around this community a decade ago, I became much more empathetic towards some of the participants when I understood that the poster who cost me a sliver of sleep one night was actually struggling with some terrible RL shit.  What felt like a drive-by 1 line insult to a theory I deeply cared about was really someone who had a lot more going on behind the scenes and I didn't need to take it so hard. 

Iago made some posts back then that really provided some great insight on the human condition for me and I might share one that I've come across in the decade or so since. 

*digs around*  there, I added a hyperlink above to the article Iago shared, and below is a link to a long podcast on how minds change that has vastly impacted how I try to interact with others.  The context is a couple years outdated, but the lessons stand. 

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-improve-your-chances-of-nudging-the-vaccine-hesitant-away-from-hesitancy-and-toward-vaccination/

The book on the subject
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=david+mcraney+how+minds+change&hvadid=604545902851&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9008492&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8192176463471806309&hvtargid=kwd-867307984929&hydadcr=22591_13493220&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_57pxs9qyx9_e

edit:  Wow my sig is outdated

[Mira]

  Back to the original topic, Outsiders are introduced, namely He Who Walks Behind, who Harry had a run in with and defeated as a 16 year old.  At that point in time he thought it was Justin who sent him after him, however in Ghost Story we find out that that was a lot more complicated, also in White Night Lash hints that the only reason that Harry came out on top with HWWB is because of what he is.
Elaine is also touched upon, at that point in time Harry thinks she is dead.  Toot is introduced, the Little Folk's love for pizza, a relationship with Harry is established that eventually evolves into Za'Lord, Major general Minimus Toot and Za'Gard.  Morgan is also introduced and his obsession with Harry under the Doom, even though he also saves his life. We learn much later that what is going on with Morgan in regards to Harry is much more complicated that it appears to be in Storm Front.