Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

There is one Uriel in the Multiverse - he exists simultaneously in every universe. A circle exists in one universe. You would have to replicate the circle in every universe for it to work. Cute indeed.

The Phages summoning was different, there was already a weak spot to their lair in the NeverNever via Pell’s Theatre and I suspect Cowl had a hand in creating that, it made a nice direct route from Chicago to Arctis Tor for weaker magic users to exploit for the attack on Arctis Tor and to get to Demonreach via the Gatekeepers access in Arctis Tor. It made a nice back door for Nameless to get back to his practice in Chicago, at least until Mab closed it off to him.

It was more akin to what Simon did in Zoo Day, which come to think of it was also likely orchestrated by Cowl, he probably keep MyShadow/Ash on a short leash.

[The_Sibelis]

Na man, if you're gonna ignore direct questions don't try to engage later. That's bad form. Let me show you..

There is one Uriel in the Multiverse - he exists simultaneously in every universe. A circle exists in one universe. You would have to replicate the circle in every universe for it to work. Cute indeed.

Harry ALSO contained lashes coin in a circle, successfully I might add. The totality of what they are is stuck in those coins. Are you arguing fallen are not multiversal but angels are? I don't think it'd make a difference, if he actually contained him, his totality would be stuck. The proof is in his transubstantiation. What happens in one reality effects him in all reality, effectively Uriel only existed as Michael and his human form in the entire multiverse at that time.

The Phages summoning was different, there was already a weak spot to their lair in the NeverNever via Pell’s Theatre

yes and while they used that weakening to cross over originally with Molly they didn't need to cross there, and didn't in fact. It's almost like the comparison between the weakened veil and those damaged by drugs or mental illness being more susceptible to possession?(and while I'm on the subject that's another parallel to the idea TWG is the 'center' of reality, and it's boundaries are where his embodiment ends)

and I suspect Cowl had a hand in creating that, it made a nice direct route from Chicago to Arctis Tor for weaker magic users to exploit for the attack on Arctis Tor and to get to Demonreach via the Gatekeepers access in Arctis Tor. It made a nice back door for Nameless to get back to his practice in Chicago, at least until Mab closed it off to him.

so nameless, as cowl helped orchestrate an attack on AT and not only did Mab never twig to it, but never sought out the Truth for her own balancing act? Impossible. If she can watch Chicago like she does then no doubt she's aware of exactly what happens in her own domain. And that alone puts an end to nameless being cowl really.

It was more akin to what Simon did in Zoo Day, which come to think of it was also likely orchestrated by Cowl, he probably keep MyShadow/Ash on a short leash.

Simon's dead. Unless he's ALSO cowl for you? Would seem to be very conflicting theories though.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

We’re talking angels and Archangels, no evidence the latter exist as a single entity across the multiverse WOJ to the latter.

When Uriel trsnsubstantiate he did so in one oniverse, his grace was still multi-universal.

Pell’s was next door to the Splattercon Hotel, the Eldest masquerading as the Scarecrow didn’t need the proximity to the weak point.

Read The Law it is expressly stated that Nameless was barred from Winter following the attack. Nameless won’t have left enough evidence for Mab in her aspect of Justice to try him but her suspicions are enough to do this. She gets evidence it’s open season on Nameless, frankly I am surprised she didn’t put Harry on it.

I mean’t Austin in Zoo day, which you obviously realised. I have told you before about trying to twist my words. This is why people do not like answering your questions directly because you troll them. Which is why I have reported you to the moderators.

[The_Sibelis]

We’re talking angels and Archangels, no evidence the latter exist as a single entity across the multiverse WOJ to the latter.

not is there evidence they are not. In fact, said woj doesn't differentiate that I remember. So your taking a broadly known fact about angels, even if it's just archangels specifically talked about, and deciding off rip the inverse must apply to regular angels. There's really no logic in that other than it's your opinion then?

When Uriel trsnsubstantiate he did so in one oniverse, his grace was still multi-universal.

yes, and it existed precisely as big as wide as the existence of one mortal on one planet. Uriel's consciousness, introduced to a body, isn't interchangeable. It isn't replaceable by lue of him being multiversal. That's a core part of Uriel. His grace might be multiversal, but only one person in the whole multiverse, in one reality, was wearing it. Hence what he did with it actually mattered. If other Uriel's were still wearing it in other universes they'd have all been connected to Michael and Michael couldn't have made his collective self fall, which was expected what he COULD do.

Pell’s was next door to the Splattercon Hotel, the Eldest masquerading as the Scarecrow didn’t need the proximity to the weak point.

the eldest is stronger? Go figure. But unless you wanna go through and try to prove he wasn't piggybacking off of Molly, I don't see how this actually disagrees.

Read The Law it is expressly stated that Nameless was barred from Winter following the attack. Nameless won’t have left enough evidence for Mab in her aspect of Justice to try him but her suspicions are enough to do this. She gets evidence it’s open season on Nameless, frankly I am surprised she didn’t put Harry on it.

can't read it can I?

I mean’t Austin in Zoo day, which you obviously realised. I have told you before about trying to twist my words. This is why people do not like answering your questions directly because you troll them. Which is why I have reported you to the moderators.

oh no, you actually misspoke and since I've read zoo day precisely once I assumed you were doing what you usually do(though now you remind me that entire story supports my theory, though not your insistence there are two entirely different kinds of circles or anything else I can think of ATM) and making an offcolor or disjointed reply in order to be cheeky, something you've done more than once and I've called you out directly on doing. Snide comments, half arguments and misdirection are your M.O. You've been screwing with me trying to get me to cross some line so you CAN report me guy.(something that was EG's M.O as well as a few others. If it didn't work then... definition of insanity isn't it?)Funny my response has been to be more like you, and you think that's reportable 😂 If they can't see that, if you can really hoodwink them, then I'll just go to the JBIT and post 🤷‍♂️ nobody's allowed to act like you've been there, and it's a much wider and audience that certainly enjoys my theories and garners Jim's attention too.

[g33k]

And Uriel response was to tell him 'LOL that's cute'.

Uriel told him it was a nice circle; we can take it as one of the unambiguous truths of the Dresdenverse, because Angel.  Harry made a solid circle, even if it was only mental.
But yeah -- lol that's cute.
Angels aren't meant -- metaphysically, within the scope of the Dresden multiverse -- to be summoned & bound.  They can't be.

Even the Demonreach-powered circle that imprisoned Ivy would be "lol that's cute" if Uriel were within it.

... The Circle isn't there to summon the creature, it's so that whatever you summon doesn't eat your face.

Yeah.  But one can either be inside a circle -- equally-valid for keeping your face un-eaten! -- or outside it.  A key difference (if you're on the inside of a circle & the face-eating summons is outside it) is that there's much less keeping it from eating everyone else's faces.

[g33k]

... we do have another example of no circle summoning now that I think about it. The phages ...

The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.

Plus there was all sorts of weakening going on -- not just Pell's theater, but Splattercon!!! itself, all that fear; it makes the area susceptible to invasion by phages.

Last but not least:  mirrors & reflective surfaces.  The Fetches can use them as gateways, no Summoning nor Sending needed.  That was one of the clues Harry used to pin down that they were Fetches.

But -- even when they were summoned -- we don't really know the details.  Could have been a very-strong practitioner, using a mental circle.  Could have been someone with a can of silly-string making a quick-but-physical circle.  Could have been Maeve or Mab, Summoning them by simple right, as a Queen of Winter.

[The_Sibelis]

The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.

Plus there was all sorts of weakening going on -- not just Pell's theater, but Splattercon!!! itself, all that fear; it makes the area susceptible to invasion by phages.

all of this is indeed explained in PG.  Though, and I could be wrong it's been a few years since a proper re-read, I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?

Last but not least:  mirrors & reflective surfaces.  The Fetches can use them as gateways, no Summoning nor Sending needed.  That was one of the clues Harry used to pin down that they were Fetches.

ahh true, true. I hadn't considered that in that direction.
Thank you, THIS is what I come for. Someone who makes me have to think and relook at my theories, and possibly revise them. Honestly wouldn't have the theories I have without all the greats I've met here(I miss the Neurov still 😞 ). Am still thinking the mirrors were the link, as in actual mechanism used to cross, like an item in a ritual almost, they focused the energy into one point better.(in the presumed order of operations for summoning, the mirrors just take the place of the circle anyway actually)Though, they're just part of fetch attributes too. And of course, what I've taken to calling ]b]the third reason[/b] referring to Jim's usage of the talking head moments on magic to explain things in layers, is because it's the 'mirror' the reflection of itself as one who creates fear that it uses to find her. That's what lights up as a beacon to it. And how Fearbringer in particular vectors hosts.

(click to show/hide)

omg I'm remembering just how much I've forgotten about the DF over the last few traumatic years 🤦‍♂️

But -- even when they were summoned -- we don't really know the details.  Could have been a very-strong practitioner, using a mental circle.  Could have been someone with a can of silly-string making a quick-but-physical circle.  Could have been Maeve or Mab, Summoning them by simple right, as a Queen of Winter.

neither do we know they did 🤷‍♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there. Actually, I think I know why they came now I'm thinking about it. And it never really comes down to sent or called, but because they could, and perhaps that is their whole purpose.
Mab kept her free will knight in the bullpen for years, but there was no loss of his primary role or true imbalance because mechanisms were already in place, the fetches. I'd say after CD it's a good guess that the Knights primary role for Mab is to kill people she thinks are Nemesis ilk that she has no leverage to act herself on.
I'd also say between Fearbringer, his later manifestation from Molly's magical fear generation as the rag lady and a few other points that she wasn't just black magic corrupted but actually Nemfected. To the point it even confused mouse(whom I think is actually there specifically to protect Harry from such possession, and take him out if necessary 👀 ) whom I think made it retreat outside of the police station from Molly's mind.
So the fetches go fetch Nfectees and then eat the portion actually Nfected, which is why the 'final fetch' seemed so different.
* What I've discovered is in the next few months I need to get a new note pad and begin a full reread and reexamination of the DF metaverse.

[g33k]

... I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?

Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon."  I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..

The "summoner" is someone who actually brings them across from the Nevernever.

... Am still thinking the mirrors were the link, as in actual mechanism used to cross like an item in a ritual almost, they focused the energy into one point better.(in the presumed order of operations for summoning, the mirrors just take the place of the circle anyway actually)Though, they're just part of fetch attributes too ...

Harry knows fetches come into the mortal world via mirrors; as you say, "just part of fetches attributes."

In some cases, the mirrors were the link; the bathroom in Splattercon!!! where Pell got assaulted, for one example:  There was Pell, and there was Nelson, and there was not a summoner (or Pell/Nelson would have noticed).  So the fetch got itself into the bathroom through the mirror (and, likely, back out again).

Later, at the screening of the movie where Rosie got injured, Harry's own magical senses could feel someone else's magical working as it went off(*).  We don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that was the summoner.

So I think we have a strong case for "both" rather than an either/or situation.

... neither do we know they did 🤷‍♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there ...

Not a "balanced" point:  I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning.  None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles.  We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how.  All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.

I will advocate for my own WAG, here:  that Molly was being nudged towards black magic by Lea, on Mab's orders:  to leverage Harry's severe case of
 [White Knight Syndrome]
 X
 [My Best Friend's Daughter]
 X
 [Everything-Is-All-My-fault Guilt]
to create a Harry/Molly relationship where Winter already has its claws in.  Likely, I think, Nemfected-Maeve got involved (trying to Screw Up Mommy's Plans); I think some of the Fetch action was Maeve's, but mostly it was Mab's (the Madrigal(Darby) Whampire involvement was -- I think -- Cowl's).

(*) -- In the incident where Rosie got hurt, there were actually three magical workings:
 #1 The power went out.  Maybe that was mortal wizard, either intentionally hexing the power, or just mortal-wizarding the way mortal wizards do (i.e. plays-badly-with-tech); given how widespread the outage, my bet would be that it was intentional.  But it could have been a non-mortal, too.
 #2 The myrk.  My bet is that it was a working of Winter (likely Maeve, maybe Mab), because (a) it came alongside a huge temperature-drop; & (b) a Maeve-likely myrk (& Hobs) was also a Winter Summoning in Small Favor.
 #3 The summoning itself, calling "The Reaper" into the movie-screening.  If this was Mab or Maeve, they could summon fetches without any "magical working" per se (when one of the Winter Queens wants a winterfae... they just arrive, no circle, no fuss, no muss).
Maybe that was 3 different workings, as many as 3 magic-workers?  Maybe it was one magical heavyweight doing three workings simultaneously (or in quick succession)?  I don't think we know...

... So the fetches go fetch Nfectees and then eat the portion actually Nfected, which is why the 'final fetch' seemed so different ...

I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that.  Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders:  if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.

[The_Sibelis]

Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon."

your probably not thinking about the same scene I think, though THAT scene actually supports this. Harry sent the fetches back to the source of the summoning, that source WAS molly. They might have been sent but the sender needed a sympathetic node, a beacon, to send them through. That's not fear, that's someone who wants to cause fear.(it's like the fetches we're literally designed to hunt Fearbringer manifest) that's why it sent the to Molly tho. She mirrored the sender and that was what gave them a beacon, or more correctly I think gave the sender something to send power through to the mortal world.

I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..

The "summoner" is someone who actually brings them across from the Nevernever.

Harry knows fetches come into the mortal world via mirrors; as you say, "just part of fetches attributes."

In some cases, the mirrors were the link; the bathroom in Splattercon!!! where Pell got assaulted, for one example:  There was Pell, and there was Nelson, and there was not a summoner (or Pell/Nelson would have noticed).  So the fetch got itself into the bathroom through the mirror (and, likely, back out again).

see above scene. Molly was at home and the fetches we're sent to cross over at splattercon!!! But she was still the harmonic resonance used to tune the fork. What they use to cross, who sends them, and how they actually find and cross into the mortal world would be three very separate things.

Later, at the screening of the movie where Rosie got injured, Harry's own magical senses could feel someone else's magical working as it went off(*).  We don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that was the summoner.

same scene as reference, Molly was effectively the only 'summoner' in the mortal world for them to go after.That's other shenanigans, either Maeve Nfected or TT stuff imo.

So I think we have a strong case for "both" rather than an either/or situation.
Not a "balanced" point:  I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning.  None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles.  We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how.

I disagree entirely and as I've already countered both of your balanced points. I think the case is quite strong actually.

  All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.

wrong again, implied theory supplied by actual data. See above for an easy example of what your able to deduce and what's actually there.

I will advocate for my own WAG, here:  that Molly was being nudged towards black magic by Lea, on Mab's orders:  to leverage Harry's severe case of
[White Knight Syndrome]
X
[My Best Friend's Daughter]
X
[Everything-Is-All-My-fault Guilt]
to create a Harry/Molly relationship where Winter already has its claws in.  Likely, I think, Nemfected-Maeve got involved (trying to Screw Up Mommy's Plans); I think some of the Fetch action was Maeve's, but mostly it was Mab's (the Madrigal(Darby) Whampire involvement was -- I think -- Cowl's).

(*) -- In the incident where Rosie got hurt, there were actually three magical workings:
#1 The power went out.  Maybe that was mortal wizard, either intentionally hexing the power, or just mortal-wizarding the way mortal wizards do (i.e. plays-badly-with-tech); given how widespread the outage, my bet would be that it was intentional.  But it could have been a non-mortal, too.
#2 The myrk.  My bet is that it was a working of Winter (likely Maeve, maybe Mab), because (a) it came alongside a huge temperature-drop; & (b) a Maeve-likely myrk (& Hobs) was also a Winter Summoning in Small Favor.
#3 The summoning itself, calling "The Reaper" into the movie-screening.  If this was Mab or Maeve, they could summon fetches without any "magical working" per se (when one of the Winter Queens wants a winterfae... they just arrive, no circle, no fuss, no muss).
Maybe that was 3 different workings, as many as 3 magic-workers?  Maybe it was one magical heavyweight doing three workings simultaneously (or in quick succession)?  I don't think we know...
I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that.  Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders:  if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.

indeed? and I can cover the rest of this later I'm sure because I've already mined half of these answers and plum forgot about it. The important part is yes, there's many factual things here from which to deduce my theory. As long as you don't ignore what's there..
Oh and your taking a function of the fetches in reality and arbitrarily applying it somewhere else under the assumption it'd work there. They hunt Fearbringer in reality not guard the gates from everything little incursion. Guard dogs, of tracker's are not gatekeepers.