Reforming the WC

[Basil]

Can Starborn be Nemesis infected?  I thought that they couldn't be affected.  That's why Justin was so keen on having Harry and Elaine -- two Starborn wizards that obeyed. 

[g33k]

Yeah...in the same sense than a man carrying an armed nuclear warhead is more powerful than the city police force.  It's power, all right, but it's a very blunt instrument and actually using it is likely to be suicidal.

I don't think we have any clear notion of what, exactly, the Warden can (and cannot) do with the prisoners.

Maybe they'r a blunt instrument.  Maybe they can be more like an épée, or a scalpel.

Maybe it depends on the specific prisoner, with a variety the Warden can call upon depending on the need.

Also:  the Well itself, and the Ley-Line nexus, represents a huge magical asset in any conflict.  Harry needs to build up his own skill & power enough to handle that power, but in time he can doubtless channel magic that's many of times stronger than any spell cast from his own internal resources.

...
If Harry threatened to release something big league to force the WC to heel, it might work...once.  But now the whole Council, including any who still sympathized with him at all are gonna want him deader than dead, ASAP.  Even if he's safe from them on Demonreach (which isn't totally certain but I wouldn't rule it out), he's now more or less trapped there.  Plus there are going to be other supernatural players no happier with him.

With the stakes that high, the outside world could try things like taking his loved ones hostage or the like, too.  Even a lot of the 'good guys' might resort to such means if the stakes were that high.  Plus, if he's corrupt enough to start doing stuff like that, he might get a Knight of the Cross after him.  I doubt if even Alfred could be fully sure of protecting Harry against a Knight on the clock.

All in all, it would be a really stupid thing for him to try ...

You present this as Harry-the-Dark-Lord.

What if Harry is just fulfilling Bianca's headstone:  He diedpimpslapped the WC Trying to Do the Right Thing.

The WC isn't a monolithic power-bloc; it presents itself that way to outsiders, and tends to act en mass if it acts at all; but it's rife with internal rivalries and divisions.  You can be damned sure the White Council is working as hard as they can to (subtly) surveil him, and a lot of the surveillance will be done by sneakier Wardens, many of whom have already held Harry in high esteem... and what they will discover is that Harry continues to Stick Up For The Little Guy, continues to Protect Mortals From Monsters, &c.  In other words, act ethically and responsibly.  They will remember -- what's the very first thing Harry Dresden did when he became the WK?  Destroyed the Red Court (who had been slowly winning the war, up until then).

So if -- for example -- Dresden comes to the WC with overwhelming force and says, "time for necromancy, folks... yeah it's dark and dangerous, but it's the only way we can take down the rest of the Blampires, so you WILL use it, this once..." he might just play to a more-sympathetic audience than Dark-Lord-Harry would.

...
Demonreach is a prison.  It holds the Trouble, but somebody has to put the Trouble in there.  That Somebody, usually, is the Wardens and the Council ...

They can't.
Without the bond to Alfred/Demonreach, they cannot interact with the prison (except as interlopers).

Only THE Warden can put a prisoner into a cell on that island.

Undoubtedly, the WC can assist.  They can help ID & track-down beings who need to be put there.  They can help whittle them down, make them vulnerable to the bindings.  They can identify weaknesses, unearth True Names, etc etc etc.

[g33k]

Can Starborn be Nemesis infected?  I thought that they couldn't be affected.  That's why Justin was so keen on having Harry and Elaine -- two Starborn wizards that obeyed.

I don't think we know for sure either way.
I have a WAG that a "Destroyer" (from the Morgan-microfic Journal) is just that -- a Nemfected Starborn.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s probably where Nemesis is let in voluntarily, free will by the Starborn. Otherwise no cigar

[g33k]

Can Starborn be Nemesis infected?  I thought that they couldn't be affected...

Returning to this point -- the Starborn certainly can be affected by Outsiders.
Harry certainly has been!

He just hasn't been beaten by them (though that one time, he needed Lash's help to recover before the expiry of that deadline imposed by a bunch of C4).

The Starborn are just resistant to Outsiders, in ways most mortals are not (and their magic is much stronger against the Outsiders than most mortals' magic is).

[The_Sibelis]

They can't.
Without the bond to Alfred/Demonreach, they cannot interact with the prison (except as interlopers).

Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought.

and their magic is much stronger against the Outsiders than most mortals' magic is).

How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?

[g33k]

Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought ...

That was a circle.  Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough.  But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.

She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.

As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.

... How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?

Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.

It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard).  It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.

Raith's defenses were
 (a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
 (b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
 (c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
 (d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right:  here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.

But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of

the circumstances of [his] birth ... a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances

he has:

... the potential to wield power over the Outsiders

[The_Sibelis]

That was a circle.  Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough.  But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.

She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.

As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.

it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it. And as Dresden pointed out, magic circles can be used for summoning. When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own. If he'd read it from Dresden she wouldn't have addressed the island spirit itself in that matter. So an outside being can activate the circle. Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle? And DR doesn't need guidance to grab what's been summoned. Seems to me those three things add up to a back up system to use sans an actual Warden.

Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.

It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard).  It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.

Raith's defenses were
 (a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
 (b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
 (c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
 (d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right:  here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.

But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of he has:

indeed, but that power does not necessarily manifest in his magic. (At least so far)
As others have minced Jim's word(especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit) I do wonder if that's not also translatable as "rule over". He did bend a walker to his will, even if it was just making it name itself.(another scene we have a woj question on if the wording was intentionally obscured with a simple comma)

[g33k]

it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it.

Cite, please.
If "the island itself" powered the circle, why isn't it always-on?  The island's always pumping power, after all!  I don't argue that some of the power came from the island and/or the extra enchantments as originally laid-down with the circle... but.

I mean... there's something about a Circle that's inherently potent.  Zero-magic Butters was able to power-up a zombie-proof circle and defy the same horde that took down Harry's own wards on his apartment.

But we know from Fool Moon that Kim (while not White-Council level) had non-trivial magic of her own, but not enough to power-up enough of a Circle to hold a Loup-Garou.  We know Harry took some pains to restrain the Erlking, and still barely had enough mojo to do the job.

I think ancillary enchantments helped inform the nature of the circle (and the loophole of covering themselves with mud), but the circle itself needed some jump-starting from someone with Power.

... When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own ...

I read that thanks very differently.
I think she was thanking DR for not simply curbstomping Maeve.

... Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle?

I think it depends on the being, and on the summoning-ritual.
For example, I don't think any of the porn-stars had any personal magical mojo in Blood Rites... they just had HWWBehind's summoning-ritual.  On the other hand, Harry's summoning of the Erlking in Dead Beat did need some magical power.

None of that speaks to whether the little wardens, or other members of the White Council, can use Demonreach to imprison supernatural BigBads:  they clearly have plenty of mojo for summonings and to empower circles!   
I just don't think the island will open its prison (even inbound) without The Warden's say-so; just as it didn't open in Cold Days, despite the Ladies empowering the Circle, or Mab being summoned.
 

... (especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit)

This is an excellent point.
I have my own WAG:  that the manifestation of Lasciel's Shadow (with whom Harry conversed, nick-named  Lash, and who eventually (if briefly) became Harry's friend & ally) wasn't the "real" Shadow.  That Lasciel's Shadow survived Lash's destruction, and has been (more or less silently) observing from the depths of Harry's mind, ever since.

[g33k]

... But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.

I very-strongly suspect that *somebody* (maybe several somebodies) will be taking down the White Council.

Here's the thing -- the Spookyside is just chock-full of predators.  Some of them are carrying grudges.  The odds are overwhelming that one or more Senior Council members are going to fall, soon.  It may be an opportunistic backstab.  It may be an "accident" in battle.  It may just be letting someone get overmatched in battle against a foe.  There are *lots* of ways for it to happen.

But when that begins... opportunistic predators will begin taking others; and taking out some lower-levels, too.  And when it looks like the Senior Council cannot protect the rest of the WC... well.

Once that tree begins to fall, the predators who began that process more-or-less *have* to finish it.  They have to take out the entire Senior Council, and most of the wardens:  they cannot risk letting those particular enemies prepare a revenge-strike!

...

And the Paranet, frankly, is posed to replace it.

[The_Sibelis]

Cite, please.
If "the island itself" powered the circle, why isn't it always-on?  The island's always pumping power, after all!  I don't argue that some of the power came from the island and/or the extra enchantments as originally laid-down with the circle... but.

do I really have to cite the in book description? The energy and power that actually formed the circle came from the island. It being part of the island is by and large why Harry could walk through it and why the covered in mud crew could as well. Harry explained this.

I mean... there's something about a Circle that's inherently potent.  Zero-magic Butters was able to power-up a zombie-proof circle and defy the same horde that took down Harry's own wards on his apartment.

yes, that's what circles do. Though thinking about it zombies have no Will, even less so than say binders goons. They're remote controlled vessels empowered and controlled by two different mechanics. 🤔 Considering now if the action of summoning actually causes the pitting of wills. Because didn't Dresden try to escape the toad Demon by simply getting in his circle til dawn? That'd show an inherent mechanism between the summoner and the summoned that isn't necessarily part of the circle. After all, when summoned they can either escape of their own violation giving them some agency in the world, taken from the summoner?(usually fatal to summoner) or the summoner submits them and unleashes them. What Harry was doing he described as a grey line,(iirc around Chauncey especially in book) because he summoned them but didn't let them go or submit them. Just bargained and banished. Gathering info from the ether kinda thing I suppose.

But we know from Fool Moon that Kim (while not White-Council level) had non-trivial magic of her own, but not enough to power-up enough of a Circle to hold a Loup-Garou.  We know Harry took some pains to restrain the Erlking, and still barely had enough mojo to do the job.

I must make a distinction, it was not powering the circle, it was holding ones will into keeping the circle. Same as when Chauncey tried to break Harry's circle. He pitted his will against Harry's who formed and held the circle. Zombies, who have no Will in the DF version, don't seem to be very effective against circles in particular for that.
The loup was special of course, in that a traditional circle didn't work. Considering the second circle is for physical force and the third never fully explained beyond "creature with both", the second at least would involve active magic to hold up
 A drain not only on magic but another thing to have to keep focused. Kim was clearly over her head. Though, how his circle functioned also wasn't explained even more so. Because sans Kim or another holding him, how'd it even hold him at all unless it had a feedback loop built-in?  I mostly consider the introduction of the greater circle here to show beings can have both sides together giving them free will agency, to scale what kind of beings may have that ability, and to point at the loup as one of them.

I think ancillary enchantments helped inform the nature of the circle (and the loophole of covering themselves with mud), but the circle itself needed some jump-starting from someone with Power.

no more power than butters.

I read that thanks very differently.
I think she was thanking DR for not simply curbstomping Maeve.

she literally stops and asks Dresden's permission to enter before turning to DR thanking him for not reacting different. Citing DR making an actual choice to not react different. I'm have a hard time connecting that to Maeve(nor has anyone who's talking about this before, because I am not the first) could you perhaps show your work? Thee whole scene is set up precisely to show this kinda stuff. Jim's never just showing or explaining one thing, usually 3.

I think it depends on the being, and on the summoning-ritual.
For example, I don't think any of the porn-stars had any personal magical mojo in Blood Rites... they just had HWWBehind's summoning-ritual.  On the other hand, Harry's summoning of the Erlking in Dead Beat did need some magical power.

well that WAS ritual magic. Though I was thinking Madge did have some small ability (didn't one of them attack Dresden with magic?🤔 Albeit weak magic) they didn't need it for the cosmic slot machine. Which I'd describe as the machine already set up to accept "quarters", so anyone with the right currency can use it. That's entirely different from an active summoning and already explained in book how.

None of that speaks to whether the little wardens, or other members of the White Council, can use Demonreach to imprison supernatural BigBads:  they clearly have plenty of mojo for summonings and to empower circles!   
I just don't think the island will open its prison (even inbound) without The Warden's say-so; just as it didn't open in Cold Days, despite the Ladies empowering the Circle, or Mab being summoned.
 This is an excellent point.
I have my own WAG:  that the manifestation of Lasciel's Shadow (with whom Harry conversed, nick-named  Lash, and who eventually (if briefly) became Harry's friend & ally) wasn't the "real" Shadow.  That Lasciel's Shadow survived Lash's destruction, and has been (more or less silently) observing from the depths of Harry's mind, ever since.

really? What'd you base that one on? Cause things living in Harry's head still is definitely on my interest list lol.