crossing genre streams...

[g33k]

So, I was thinking about the (normally sci-fi-ish) idea of "psionics."

So far as I know, this doesn't exist as-such in the Dresdenverse, though versions of it certainly do in creatures of the Nevernever &c...  Arguably, Whampires could be considered "psionic" creatures, and Fetches & other phobophages would be "psionic parasites" or somesuch.

Jim has stated that he sees almost everything from various fantasy novels & settings as (at least potentially) part of the Dresdenverse, if only in some far corner of the Nevernever (n.b. that means things like Tolkien's One Ring are out there... somewhere; and people like Prof. Xavier... ) .

Anyhow... psionics.  Sometimes called a sort of "space magic" or part of the "science-fantasy" genre-mashup, but explicitly science-y and not "supernatural" in nature.

Some of these (looking especially at telepathy & its related disciplines) look a helluva lot like "Black Magic" powers.  But if they are science-y flavored (and specifically non-magical, e.g. not impacted by a plain ol' "magic circle") then I don't think that the White Council would see the powers as subject to their Laws of Magic, nor subject to Warden enforcement.  There could, theoretically, be an entire "psionic masquerade" in parallel to the magical one, as telepaths and telekinetics & pyrokinetics &c &c &c jockey for power without attracting Muggle attention.

I don't think this is something Jim is likely to explore in the DF novels -- it's too off-course.

But if it did exist...

I think the White Council would likely have protocols in place for this.  Although a magic circle wouldn't block psionics, other sort of wards would (just as there are wards that can block bullets, or flame-throwers, or ghoul's claws, or what-have-you other physics-y effects).  They'd teach wards against psionic powers as part of their standard Warden / Security training, just as they train Wardens to deal with other supernatural threats (we don't really know what sorts of training non-Warden wizards get, as we've only seen Harry, really, whose training is presumed highly-unusual).

Anybody else care to speculate or comment upon this (non-canonical) tangential idea?

[The_Sibelis]

If it fits into the DF why wouldn't it follow known patterns already available? Pretty sure psionics is just a classification of magic already in the DF. From Molly's mind reading and empathy, to Dresden's forzare and working with pure force explained by him. 🤔 Pretty sure woj on Tilly is he has a gimmick talent along the same vein as psychokinesis Molly specifically has huge potential with mental magic even though she struggles to throw energy around in classic'battlemagic'. In fact pretty much any subdivision of psionic magic can already be found elsewhere, already fitting in with its own rules and regulations. The issue with trying to shoehorn nonmagical psionics in anywhere in the Dresden files is two fold. 1 it already exists as semi magical talents 2 how would it differ and what then limitations stim from that. Take Jarlaxles buddy, his is pure psionics but I'm pretty sure the explanation written into the books says some of the things he does actually manipulates the weave to produce it's effects. He's using magical energy guided by his mind instead of spell form. The divide between 'psychic' as a pure science and magic becomes pointless when the energy inherent to the DF would classify the resulting use as magic. You could argue wizards are merely psionics who are using their mind to guide the magical energy they can find, hence Dresden saying being able to perceive magic being one of the biggest stepping stones to actually using it.

[g33k]

Lots to answer, here...

If it fits into the DF why wouldn't it follow known patterns already available? Pretty sure psionics is just a classification of magic already in the DF.

Sure, that could be a way to get psionics:  Just say that it follows the mechanics of magic, as modified by the beliefs of the psionicist (as opposed to the beliefs of the magician).  The DFRPG has some explicit rules you could use to model it (reaching out to other iterations of the Fate rules as-needed).

... In fact pretty much any subdivision of psionic magic can already be found elsewhere, already fitting in with its own rules and regulations ...

Oh yeah.  Absolutely!  As I noted, psi is often called "space magic" or part of "science fantasy."

It's those parts of "magic" that can be re-skinned with a "science" veneer; anything too inherently "supernatural" isn't really eligible to be SCIENCE!'d ...  I'd consider magic to be able to do virtually everything psi can do, plus things psi can't do.

BUT a genuinely-psi (not a branch or form of magic) would have a different suite of limitations (see below), and a different "feel."

... The issue with trying to shoehorn nonmagical psionics in anywhere in the Dresden files is two fold. 1 it already exists as semi magical talents 2 how would it differ and what then limitations stim from that ...

Here you have come to the crux of it, or hit the nail on the head, or somesuch...  IF you posit "psi" as something genuinely different from "magic," how would it differ?  What limitations and/or abilities would it have, that magic does not?

To begin with, the standard "magic circle" would not apply.  Magic (by default) doesn't block bullets, or lasers, or radio, or gaseous diffusion, or psi, or etc. -- nothing "science-y," only "magic."

Magicians can craft specific wards and/or spell-effects that will block any sort of "science..." but the bog-standard magic circle ward (like Harry taught Waldo, during Dead Beat) is magic-only.

So psionicists won't use those circles, except the basic sort that clued-in muggles use as basic protection.

More than once, Jim narrates how "magic" still has to "do business with the laws of physics."  So Harry Fuego's some big-ass blasts of fire, when what he really wants is the ice effects from sucking that much heat from his environs; or he and Lara do the Carnal-Cannonball Express out of the Raith Deeps and into the Raith Mansion; or he and Murphy play the "Our Harley Trumps Your Buick" card.  And so on.

But... these aren't all really "doing business with the laws of physics."

Fuego-for-ice... yeah, heat-pump, got it, that's "physics..."  not.  Because simply moving-around that much energy is itself an energy-intensive exercise.  If that were "physics," Harry would have raised his own body-temp as a "human heat-pump" to the range of instantly-fatal, and dropped dead (or maybe dropped his temp to "semi-conscious veering into comatose").

We can accept greater level of handwavium in magic, because it's magic & need not obey the rules of physics.  For "Psi," we'd need to stick closer to the SCIENCE! of the thing; that may be a line that would need to be carefully-defined, from an in-world perspective:  one might need to go into "dark energy" and "zero point energy" and "observer effect" for ones handwavium.

For now, I handwave the handwavium itself -- & all the associated issues -- in favor of asking the story questions -- what would be the implications of this not-magic which gives "ordinary people" a magic-like ability to seemingly-defy the laws of physics in similar ways that wizards can?

Another thing (a big thing, story-wise in the Dresdenverse) is that when "psi" is SCIENCE!, it won't have magic's tech-hex effect.  No doubt a psionicist could do something anti-tech (it wouldn't take much telekinetic force applied directly to nanoscale circuits inside the chip-case, to render a computer or cellphone or etc as dead as any wizard's hex), but anti-tech wouldn't be the default.

On the other hand, True-Name-based Summonings would only work as well for a psionicist as for any Muggle, which is to say some work but some do not; some beings must come when Summoned, while others only get their sleeve tugged, and can attend or not as they choose.  The "vending machine rituals" work just fine, but most others won't (needing (at least some) magical talent to cast); and still others need the power of a strong wizard bolstering the magic circle, in order for the summoned being not to promptly eat the summoner.

As you note, Harry's "Forzare" is a very "telekinesis-like" spell -- there is tremendous overlap, I think.

On the other hand, Harry's "finding" spell has no unambiguous psionic parallel.  While some versions of "psionics" include "psychometry" (object-reading) or the like, it's usually associated with the past of an item, not finding the current location of a person associated with the item; and using something like a parent's blood as a "finding" object would be "psychometrically" ridiculous (the parent's "signal" would overwhelm the child's).

So the "psi" methods -- & stories one would tell -- may sometimes closely-match those of wizards, but sometimes would be very different.

[The_Sibelis]

On the other hand, Harry's "finding" spell has no unambiguous psionic parallel.  While some versions of "psionics" include "psychometry" (object-reading) or the like, it's usually associated with the past of an item, not finding the current location of a person associated with the item; and using something like a parent's blood as a "finding" object would be "psychometrically" ridiculous (the parent's "signal" would overwhelm the child's).

lol, all that's actually in parallel to 'real world' psychics? They claim to find things or people. And as for using a parents blood. Depends. Using the classic thinking it wouldn't do squat. But your not reading it through the same sieve, the mental gymnastics is an important part of any magic system. How your going to use the rules and principles already in place. Like calls to like, as above so below, ect. The little sayings have a lot of oomph  behind them.
The idea behind blood of course, is it's not only I direct part of something but connected to it's very life. Considering the propagation of life and indeed familial heritage in the DF I don't think it's that hard to swallow of an idea.
Finding someone, or something would probably not be psychometry though. More a manifestation of remote viewing(telesthesia) , using connections focused or found embodied in a physical object.

More than once, Jim narrates how "magic" still has to "do business with the laws of physics."  So Harry Fuego's some big-ass blasts of fire, when what he really wants is the ice effects from sucking that much heat from his environs; or he and Lara do the Carnal-Cannonball Express out of the Raith Deeps and into the Raith Mansion; or he and Murphy play the "Our Harley Trumps Your Buick" card.  And so on.

ehh, yes and no? The business end of magic has to deal with the laws of physics. Things manifest in a way they interact with the weave of what already is.
Alternative to Harry needing to redirect heat to make ice is the winter mantle. It's tapping into what isand it's only it's manifestations that interact with physic. When Harry makes magic he's usually using it to tap into things and leverage physics already there. Creating your own, like his telekinesis, costs him more from his metaphysical gas tank. The less you piggy back off of this Isness the more magic intensive it is. The more of YOU you have to put into it. Whereas beings who are already something else don't necessarily even have to try. Mab makes it cold. This isn't something she does, it just is. A function of what she is.(insert random thought about throwing yourself into your own avatar, death curse style 🤔 ) other beings bend or break reality altogether. When Ferro says he'd crack the Earth's crust I don't necessarily think he means raw size. His metaphysical mass is so great reality breaks around him. He intrudes and says, I AM GRAVITY NOW 😂
This leads into a bunch of different topical theories and ideas about how magic and reality are intentionally layered in the DF. But the two main ideas are 1 those beings on the god tier are literal avatars of their power source. They represent prime aspects of what is. But what IS doesn't change, doesn't have that spark.
2 humans do. Humans the only ones supposed to be effecting fate in so far as choice goes. They have a soul. An engine of creation. They can change, create, destroy, ect. But they have limited power to do so. Wizards though, they can begin to actually create by fiddling with the system already there. I think this is the key to why only mortals can open the gates or let outsiders in. Only they can make something that isn't IS. I consider this an intentional thing, something done to help 'settle the land' as far as reality goes. To prevent constant large scale cycles of destruction and creation. The division of what IS from what CAN be came about after the Angelic wars no doubt. Though here there's a time where gods were still Gods and could effect fate. Before the need to splinter the embodiments of the courts came about.
Interesting tidbit, classical Druids could effect the elements but could NOT effect fate, as that was the domain of the Gods. Wizards can effect fate, though there are rules around that, 7 of them in fact.
I'm gonna stop myself right there before I wax eloquent for probably the character limit of the post lol. Keep wanting to dig deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole rn about the deep metaphysics in the DF.