Author Topic: Harry's open grave  (Read 2302 times)

Offline RobReece

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Harry's open grave
« on: May 03, 2023, 07:24:16 PM »
At the end of BG, they filled a coffin and buried it in Harry's open grave.

My question is,  why was it still open?  Harry had been declared dead.  Per Butters, they had a funeral for him... so why was the grave still open during BG.  Why didn't they fill it when he "died"?

I understand that Bianca made special arrangements to have it waiting for his death, and that death took a lot longer than she'd anticipated.   But why not use it when he did die, officially.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2023, 08:17:51 PM »
Because Bianca had paid for it to be kept open in perpetuity and Harry was never declared legally dead, only a missing person.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2023, 08:40:23 PM »
Because Bianca had paid for it to be kept open in perpetuity and Harry was never declared legally dead, only a missing person.
Agreed, I don't think anyone on Team Dresden has the clout to get that grave closed without putting a body in it, and they didn't have a body...

side note, I don't think Bianca paid to keep it open, I think she blackmailed... and possibly magiced...

Offline RobReece

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2023, 09:14:48 PM »
I think he was officially dead, according to Rashid...
Quote
I will verify your return and that you are indeed yourself, and will see to it that your back pay as one of the Wardens is forwarded to you. There’s some paperwork to fill out to get the Council’s office to reestablish your official identity with the government, but I’ll see to it that it happens. I think I remember all the necessary forms.”

That wouldn't have been necessary if he weren't officially dead.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2023, 08:09:37 AM »
Such a short term disappearance, they are unlikely to have him declared dead. Government does not work that fast. Plus, it is Chicago, once he is officially dead, they might try to take him off the voting rolls! And the dead never vote red....

Offline RobReece

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2023, 02:00:08 PM »
The spot of his last known location was a crime scene, with a large bullet hole and blood splatter(his bloodtype), no sign of life for what, 9 months?
You can call that a "short term disappearance " if you like.

Regardless,  if he weren't 'officially ' dead, there would have been no need to "reestablish " his identity with the government 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 02:09:42 PM by RobReece »

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2023, 06:48:56 PM »
The spot of his last known location was a crime scene, with a large bullet hole and blood splatter(his bloodtype), no sign of life for what, 9 months?
You can call that a "short term disappearance " if you like.

Regardless,  if he weren't 'officially ' dead, there would have been no need to "reestablish " his identity with the government

I don't remember him having to as far as the government goes.  Now he did have to reestablish himself with the White Council.. Supposedly Murphy was executrices of his will, but he really didn't have anything of value to probate as far as the state was concerned.  Nor would there be any probate without a death certificate...  The evidence that he was likely dead has to be filed in court, and the court can order one made according to Google..

But back to the grave, unless Harry's friends wanted to hold a symbolic funeral and bury an empty coffin, I don't think there is a law that says an empty grave has to be filled in, unless of course there was danger that someone would fall in it and get hurt.  It had been paid for after all.

Offline RobReece

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2023, 08:04:18 PM »
The quote above is from Cold Days where it specifically states re-estabishing his identity with the government.   

As for the grave, that's exactly what they did at the end of BG.  They filled a coffin and buried it.

Butters states in CD
Quote
“I’m still kind of freaking out that you’re here at all, honestly. I mean, we held your funeral. 

Where did they hold his funeral,  if not at his grave,  he didn't say wake or memorial,  he said funeral. Is there another grave for Harry with an empty coffin?

Offline vincentric

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2023, 11:03:32 PM »
They could have done the death paperwork after GS and held the funeral before CD. While they were holding out hope, at the end of GS thought Harry had passed on.

Offline RobReece

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2023, 03:53:34 AM »
That was my thought, that until GS, they'd held out hope, once they all saw his ghost and his ghost departed, that hope was gone.  They then had a funeral service,  why didn't they fill his grave then and there?  Why leave it open with his headstone standing there?

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2023, 04:11:47 AM »
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Where did they hold his funeral,  if not at his grave,  he didn't say wake or memorial,  he said funeral. Is there another grave for Harry with an empty coffin?

 You don't need a body to have a funeral, and you also don't have to have a grave side service.  His friends may not have even known the grave existed.  Yes, Michael and Thomas were both there when Bianca gave Harry the grave stone, but neither may have known that there was actually a dug grave to go with it.  People buy plots all of the time to be buried in in the future, but no actual hole is dug until it is needed.  Also Butters may have used funeral interchangeably with memorial, especially if it is a few friends getting together to remember and there is no actual body.
Quote
The quote above is from Cold Days where it specifically states re-estabishing his identity with the government.   
The White Council, that's the wizard's government, which has nothing to do with the city or the state which is vanilla humans.. As far as the vanilla human government goes, Harry would be considered missing and presumed dead, but not officially dead until he had been missing for seven years. 

Offline RobReece

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2023, 06:09:04 PM »



You don't need a body to have a funeral, and you also don't have to have a grave side service.  His friends may not have even known the grave existed.  Yes, Michael and Thomas were both there when Bianca gave Harry the grave stone, but neither may have known that there was actually a dug grave to go with it.  People buy plots all of the time to be buried in in the future, but no actual hole is dug until it is needed.  Also Butters may have used funeral interchangeably with memorial, especially if it is a few friends getting together to remember and there is no actual body.The White Council, that's the wizard's government, which has nothing to do with the city or the state which is vanilla humans.. As far as the vanilla human government goes, Harry would be considered missing and presumed dead, but not officially dead until he had been missing for seven years.

As for the funeral

[quote“Over here,” said a familiar voice. It was later, but not much later. Sometime after noon, maybe? It was hard to tell from the grave. “You’ve never even been here before,” answered another. “I was at the funeral. How the hell would you know where his grave was?” I heard Fitz let out a sigh front-loaded with so much drama that only a teenager could have managed it without hurting himself. “Is it the gaping hole in the ground over there, with the big pentacle on the headstone?” There was a brief, miffed pause, and Butters answered, “Okay. Maybe it is.”   [/quote]

When Butters visited Harry's graveside in GS, he mentions that the funeral had been held there.

As for the government, the WC is the WC, not a government.  I think the quote from Rashid above clearly states that the WC's office would send the forms to the government.

But I understand that a missing person isn't usually declared dead for 7 years. But I think the bullet hole and blood splatter is different from a simple missing persons report.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2023, 08:32:27 PM »
But I understand that a missing person isn't usually declared dead for 7 years. But I think the bullet hole and blood splatter is different from a simple missing persons report.
Missing and presumed Dead...

But that grave stayed open against the law and after the person who arranged it died.  Harry being missing and presumed dead doesn't put a body in the ground and none of his friends spent their time chasing paperwork to 'prove' he died... they held a funeral at the grave, but didn't file the paperwork for it, they just showed up like you do when you put flowers on a grave...

Even if the city declared him dead and authorized the disbursements of his will and what not City Hall wouldn't have thought to send paperwork to a random local graveyard that it was now okay to close the grave they had held open (illegally) for the last few years.  Remember the graveyard isn't a part of the government and the government doesn't need to worry about closing a grave because graves can't be left open...

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's open grave
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2023, 07:19:36 PM »
Quote
[quote“Over here,” said a familiar voice. It was later, but not much later. Sometime after noon, maybe? It was hard to tell from the grave. “You’ve never even been here before,” answered another. “I was at the funeral. How the hell would you know where his grave was?” I heard Fitz let out a sigh front-loaded with so much drama that only a teenager could have managed it without hurting himself. “Is it the gaping hole in the ground over there, with the big pentacle on the headstone?” There was a brief, miffed pause, and Butters answered, “Okay. Maybe it is.”   

When Butters visited Harry's graveside in GS, he mentions that the funeral had been held there.
[/quote]

But unless there was a coffin and a body in it, it was still nothing more than a memorial.  Then again I've attended three services, no body, there were ashes, funeral or memorial?  The last was rather interesting because the man had been a Korean War Vet.  No flag draped coffin, but there was a flag folding ceremony with honor guard like there had been a coffin.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 07:40:21 PM by Mira »