Black Council & BG

[RobReece]

So was the Black Council caught off guard by Ethniu and Corb?
I believe that the general consensus was that Cristos was at least associated with,  if not a member of the BC.  But it appeared that he was fully committed during the Battle for Chicago.
OR
Do you think it's possible that Listen is BC and they wanted the Battle but wanted the outcome that occurred,  this could explain why he didn't give Ethniu an accurate vision of what took place at the Carpenters, there's no way he would have overlooked the absence of Mouse. It also gives them potential conflicts with humanity and that seems to be something they would strive for.

Curious on everyone's thoughts

[Yuillegan]

No, depending on what you define as the Black Council.

Harry has suggested the possibility that all those Nemesis infects is what is thought of as Black Council. However, I think this isn't the case.

What seems to be more likely is that the Black Council either works for or uses/aids Nemesis. Given that the whole Ethniu assault was simply Nemesis (and the Outsiders) just causing a bit of chaos in order to distract everyone, I'd say that the Black Council was highly aware of the Fomor's impending assault.

Jim has said they were "very busy not getting stomped on" by Ethniu. They more seem like behind the scenes players than anything else.

Perhaps Cristos was simply maintaining his cover. More likely, I think he isn't Black Council and merely just a puppet they influence. Perhaps Nemesis infected but more likely just vain and greedy and working for them to improve his station. Stupid, arrogant, naive perhaps - but not necessarily outright evil.

Listen does seem like a good candidate for Black Council membership. Listen is very capable, sure. But he was up against a literal fairy queen (Molly). Is it so hard to believe she could fool him? Listen didn't betray Ethniu - even if by her standards she felt he did. It isn't a betrayal to be wrong. As Harry implies, she just doesn't get she couldn't have known everything. That even a being who thinks she is so powerful has blindspots.

That said, it could also be the case that she realised Listen had betrayed her outright and Harry hadn't realised and assumed something else. But I think it more likely that Listen failing to achieve his task was considered a betrayal by Ethniu.

[RobReece]

The more I think about it, the less I see them involved in the Battle.  The BC were definitely behind the schism between the White Court and the Svartelves, they pushed Thomas for the assassination attempt,  but even that was pushed aside by Ethniu. Look at Harry's description towards the end of the battle, the whamps and Etri's people were working together.  I don't see any indication that they were behind Ethniu or aware of her intentions.
Even without the Battle, Justine would have begged Harry to take her to see Thomas.  I can't see the entire Battle just as a means to tire Harry out so he wouldn't be thinking clearly.

[Yuillegan]

Oh I don't know about that, the entire battle has their fingerprints all over it. I doubt many, if any, participated in the actual fighting.

But stirring up factions that haven't been at war in thousands of years, beings acting outside their normal behaviours and ignoring protocols and treaties...it's classic Black Council. Not to mention, Ethniu got Balor's eye somehow. She was locked in a tower by her father when he lost the Eye to her son. Now it's possible Lugh (her son) returned it to her, but then who ripped out her eye for her to place Balor's Eye in? My guess is a Walker of the Outside. Who else could damage her so? Also, how did she get Titanic Bronze? Only the Hekatonheires (Hundred-Handed Ones) knew it's secrets, even the Svartalves were not sure of it. Lots of questions and no answers.

An angry being like her was strong enough, but someone (or a group of someones) armed and armoured her and pointed her at her ancient foes. And why? To weaken their defence of the Outer Gates.

Also, consider that the Black Council (or rather, Nemesis) was behind the assassination attempt of Etri. This was done to destabilise the already fragile relations between the Accords members (this is said in Battle Ground). It's quite clear that after the Red Court failed to destroy the White Council, the Black Council unleased another force against them. I am sure there is more.

Further, the presence of Drakul would also hint at Black Council involvement. Whether he is aligned with them or not, I suspect he is connected to them, either as possible occasional allies or competition.

The Whamps and Svartalves working together was about pure survival. Had they refused, Mab (not to mention the other Accord members) might have made them pay later. More importantly though, failure to stop Ethniu would have likely meant their destruction (at least locally, and probably totally in the mid to long term).

The Battle wasn't merely to tire out Harry. That merely was one of Nemesis' many options. As Nemesis itself says, it's not so much a plan as an act of faith. I see Nemesis as more like the Joker than Bane, if that makes sense. An agent of chaos. Everything it does it merely to create more chaos, conditions that suit it and the Outsiders, that ultimately weaken the barriers that keep them out. It's all about the Outer Gates, and to a lesser (but still important degree), the prison at Demonreach. Remember, the Outer Gates came under major assault JUST as Ethniu announced her impending assault on Chicago.

To the Outsiders, what is a small dust-up like the Battle of Chicago but a bit of distraction to the forces allied against them? The Outsiders are fighting a multi-verse scale war, even one universe is ultimately a very, very tiny part of it all. Even if Harry's universe is very important, perhaps more important to the greater battle than most universes. The Outsiders might number in the trillions, likely very nearly infinite.

[RobReece]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The BC, and I include Nemesis in that, wants dissension,  I agree, but the Accorded Nations are tighter together after fighting together,  that would have happened whether they won the battle or lost it.  Drakul, I don't see him working for anyone, he was just on a recruiting trip.

For now, I'll stand on my belief that Etri's attempted assassination and Ethniu's attack were separate plots by separate groups.   But others used it to pursue their own goals.

Unless or until we get additional evidence one way or the other.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Black Council is I think largely Cowl, and his allies, agents and cats paws.

[vincentric]

It's all a Nemesis plot.

One of the main points of PT/BG was the desire by Nemesis to hasten the Apocalypse. Go back and reread the conversation between Harry and Justine. It explains Thomas's attack on Etri and how the whole Ethniu/Formor attack on Chicago was a diversion for another attack on Demonreach. Basically, Nemesis monologues to Harry that it has been behind almost everything he's encountered and that it is the overarching villain of the piece.

Yes, there are individuals such as Cowl, Nic and Drakul running about. But almost all the other foes that Dresden has faced have been pieces in the game Nemesis is playing against the protectors of reality in this universe and even they are not entirely clear of his influence.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Outsiders abhor creation and especially humans, they desire complete destruction. Everyone else wants a new creation along their own lines, but they are all quite happy to see the end of humanity.

Cowl quite clearly has the ear of the Outsiders (or some other equivalent sensory appendage, I hope, rather than some other sort of appendage), and as such is their man in creation, but he is likely playing his own game,  Nick is Lucifers guy, Drakul’s his own guy, Harry is Uriel’s guy.

[RobReece]

It's all a Nemesis plot.

One of the main points of PT/BG was the desire by Nemesis to hasten the Apocalypse. Go back and reread the conversation between Harry and Justine. It explains Thomas's attack on Etri and how the whole Ethniu/Formor attack on Chicago was a diversion for another attack on Demonreach. Basically, Nemesis monologues to Harry that it has been behind almost everything he's encountered and that it is the overarching villain of the piece.

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.  I'd forgotten about that conversation.

I think it might have been cleaner to keep them separate...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

From Nemesis point of view, yes BUT Nemesis only came into the files in Grave Peril in the Athame, it didn’t train the sorcerers or give out Wolfskin belts.

It’s aim is certainly to tear apart the Accords and turn the supernatural on Humanity to weaken the defence of the Gates and allow the outsiders untrammelled access, it is working with others who may have their own agenda, Cowl/Nameless chief amongst them. Nameless may have been working with Nemesis for centuries he is one of the 10 diseases of Loviator and Nemesis is most often described as an infection.

[Yuillegan]

It's all a Nemesis plot.

One of the main points of PT/BG was the desire by Nemesis to hasten the Apocalypse. Go back and reread the conversation between Harry and Justine. It explains Thomas's attack on Etri and how the whole Ethniu/Formor attack on Chicago was a diversion for another attack on Demonreach. Basically, Nemesis monologues to Harry that it has been behind almost everything he's encountered and that it is the overarching villain of the piece.

Yes, there are individuals such as Cowl, Nic and Drakul running about. But almost all the other foes that Dresden has faced have been pieces in the game Nemesis is playing against the protectors of reality in this universe and even they are not entirely clear of his influence.

^^This.

It's been pretty thoroughly explained that Nemesis (and/or the Outsiders) have been involved with every major foe (and even some minor ones) in the series. They either have had a direct or indirect influence in every book, often via the so-called Black Council.

The Outsiders abhor creation and especially humans, they desire complete destruction. Everyone else wants a new creation along their own lines, but they are all quite happy to see the end of humanity.

Cowl quite clearly has the ear of the Outsiders (or some other equivalent sensory appendage, I hope, rather than some other sort of appendage), and as such is their man in creation, but he is likely playing his own game,  Nick is Lucifers guy, Drakul’s his own guy, Harry is Uriel’s guy.

You know, I think this is basically what the Stars and Stones is about. Whoever gets it right decides what their universe looks like (or even if there is one), although should they not elect to end everything then it's a waiting game until the next cycle. It may or may not effect things at the multiverse level (although I am sure it does to some degree).

I laughed, but hoo boy that is a minefield. All appendages are sensory though, unless you have lost the sense of touch.

Also, I highly doubt Cowl is their only man in Harry's universe, let alone all Creation. Hence the Black Council etc.

Not sure about Nick being Lucifer's guy. I kinda think he has his own plan. Just a very angry, dangerous man with the knowledge and ability to tip the scales of destiny. I always think of that very obscure WOJ about Nick being more dangerous to Creation than Lucifer, in some ways. Primarily because (and this is the salient point) Lucifer is in an argument with god, and therefore needs a Creation to argue about. He implies Nicodemus doesn't care so much about that.

I can't make my mind up on Drakul. He could be an evil Dragon, he could be an Outsider, he could be Lucifer depowered significantly, or simply a Demon Lord of some sort. His true identity is the key to knowing his motives. But I do agree that he largely seems to be his own man.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The BC, and I include Nemesis in that, wants dissension,  I agree, but the Accorded Nations are tighter together after fighting together,  that would have happened whether they won the battle or lost it.  Drakul, I don't see him working for anyone, he was just on a recruiting trip.

For now, I'll stand on my belief that Etri's attempted assassination and Ethniu's attack were separate plots by separate groups.   But others used it to pursue their own goals.

Unless or until we get additional evidence one way or the other.

The problem with this is that I doubt Nemesis predicted that it's assault would bind those allies tighter together. I think it assumed that regardless of the outcome of the Battle, more chaos would be in the world and therefore a more fractured Accords. And yet, x does not equal y (if you like). It's assumed premise lead to an illogical conclusion, because Nemesis is an Outsider. It has trouble working out humans, and that x factor confuses it's calculations.

And as Vincentric points out, it's actually stated the attacks are linked.

Thomas, struggling to speak.
 I thought of my brother’s face, crushed and swollen out of shape.
 Junghg. S’Jnngh.
 He hadn’t been able to say, “Justine.”
 Or maybe he hadn’t been trying to say it.
 I thought of the island, disturbed at the great powers expended that night.
 The last thing I needed was something slipping out of the prison during all the hubbub.
 S’Jnngh, he’d told me.
 Why had my brother gone after Etri?
 S’Justine, he’d told me.
 It’s Justine.
 Hell’s bells.
 It was Justine.

“See, there were just too many threads being pulled,” I said. “The attack on the Outer Gates especially. And the Titan herself . . . God, what a blunt instrument. What a big, loud distraction. So that you could get inside.”
 Justine’s head turned to face me. The lightening sky was behind her. There was nothing to be seen of her expression but blackness.
 I limped forward a couple of paces. Nothing specific was any worse than it had been an hour ago, but even the immunity of the Winter mantle had its limits. My joints felt like they’d been dipped in plaster and were slowly drying stiff.
 “And every single living family member of mine, personally, was placed in danger. All of them. To make sure I had the maximum amount of personal worry to distract me.”
 Justine has incredible cheekbones. They shifted, slightly altering her shadowy profile as she smiled.
 “Something about Justine wasn’t . . . quite right, earlier, in the apartment,” I said. And I let my voice harden. “How long ago did you possess the girl?”
 Justine was silent for a moment. Then she shook her head and said, “I think the problem is, you just don’t sound all that bright, wizard. Perhaps it’s skewing my expectations.”
 She turned toward me, slim and graceful, steady on the deck.
 I faced her and tried not to pitch over the rail as the Water Beetle bumped along the waves. It had been a long night. And I didn’t have much left, physically or otherwise.
 “Tell me your name,” I said, and slid some of my will into my voice.
 “You know who I am,” Justine purred in answer.
 Then she reached out with one hand and ripped a four-foot section of the ship’s steel handrail off its metal struts.
 I blinked wearily and fancied I could hear grains of sand pattering to the deck from my eyes. Now I knew what Ethniu had felt like at the end. “Humor me,” I said, with more of my will. “Tell me your name.”
 Justine, or whatever being was driving Justine’s body around, turned toward me and began slow, stalking paces forward. It made some abortive, choking noises in its throat, and then said, the words drawn from it reluctantly, “It will do you no good once I’ve caved in your skull. Nemesis am I called.”
 There. Bingo.
 For years, shadowy forces had been driving events in Chicago and in the wider world. For years, I’d been picking up threads and finding them connected to others. For years, I’d been flailing around trying to get an idea of the forces that had been arrayed against me.
 And tonight, one of the players was in the open.
 Right there. Behind Justine’s eyes.
 And I was going to get answers.
 I didn’t have much left in me but pure, stiff-necked, muleheaded contrariness.
 But even after the night I’d had, I still had plenty of it.
 “I don’t care what they call you,” I spat. The effort of maintaining my will made it impossible to move my feet as the slender girl stalked forward with her steel bar. “Thrice I say and done. Tell me your name.”
 The slender figure froze in front of me, shuddering.
 Then she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, “I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.”
 She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, “I am He Who Walks Beside.”
 Hell’s bells.
 A Walker.
 And if I hadn’t twigged to its presence, I would have set it loose on Demonreach— the prison for the great nightmares of the world. Ethniu wasn’t the biggest thing in it—not by a long shot. And an Outsider with the power of a Walker, turned loose inside the island’s defenses, might well be able to destroy them and set loose every horror inside.
 Hell. There’d have been an Ethniu for every city, if the place got emptied out.
 The weight of my will, once finished forcing the information from the possessing being, flooded out of me and left me barely able to stand. I staggered back, away from the slender figure in front of me.
 Justine, calmly, pursued.
 “I hope it felt good to scratch that itch,” she purred. “This is the end of your story, starborn.”
 “How long?” I asked. “How long have you been in Justine?”
 Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture. “Mortal time is such a limited concept. A few years. Ever since she became close to Lara.”
 I glowered at her. “You conceived my brother’s child intentionally.”
 “Obviously,” Justine purred. “That ridiculous instinct, honestly. It is your kind’s greatest weakness. Once he understood that his mate and his offspring would die if he did not follow my instructions, well . . .” She shrugged.
 “So you sent him at Etri. At the svartalves, someone almost everyone respects. Why? To shatter the Accords?”
 “Apocalypse isn’t an event,” Nemesis murmured. “It is a frame of mind.”
 I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard.
 “This was less a plan than . . . an act of faith, I suppose you would say,” the Outsider continued through Justine’s lips.
 “Faith?” I asked.
 “In what is coming,” the Walker said. “The unraveling of all things into darkness and silence.”
 “Empty Night,” I breathed.
“Empty Night,” the creature echoed, in the hushed tone of a holy phrase. “So we pressed the attacks at the Outer Gates. While I sowed havoc within the walls of reality. We loosed some of the primal forces of your own precious Creation against you. Undermined Mab, her people, the Accords, the delusion of order you force upon the universe with your useless presence.” She smiled, dropping lower, the motion feline, sensual, hypnotic. “You may have survived the day. But the deed is done. We are the tide. Infinite. Unrelenting. And one day, starborn, make no mistake, we will wipe away all that you know. All we need is a single opening.”

[Snark Knight]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The BC, and I include Nemesis in that, wants dissension,  I agree, but the Accorded Nations are tighter together after fighting together,  that would have happened whether they won the battle or lost it.  Drakul, I don't see him working for anyone, he was just on a recruiting trip.

For now, I'll stand on my belief that Etri's attempted assassination and Ethniu's attack were separate plots by separate groups.   But others used it to pursue their own goals.

Unless or until we get additional evidence one way or the other.

The accorded nations were supposed to be decapitated in the fighting. If the survivors were driven together by the failure of the masquerade but lost most of their monarchs, that would have still been a net win for the BC.  Plus, Ethniu's original play to offer them their safety if they left ahead of the attack would have driven one hell of a wedge if more had taken her up on it.  Those would have been well positioned to attack the remnants of whichever nations did stand, fight, and suffer grievous losses, and predators could hardly resist such an opportunity.

But for argument's sake, sure, let's say the two plots were separate. Blackmailing Thomas into trying to clip Etri still came, what, 36 hours before Ethniu's attack?  And coincident with the Council vote to expel Harry, which was probably a Black Council / Circle move.  That suggests that even if they weren't cooperative, one was timed with knowledge of the others - it's too much of a coincidence that completely disconnected plots strike that close together.  If it doesn't indicate willing alliance, it's still likely one faction is using spies in the other to either follow the spied-on party's timetable for maximum impact, or influence it to when the ones doing the spying wanted it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

My view is Cowl/Nameless was behind everything, the Fomor were his current cats paw to (1) to destroy Winter and the Accords, (2) set up an war between humanity and the supernatural world.

Thomas and the attack by the Corner Hounds were to destabilise the White Court and the Swartalves and the White Council, both involved Outsiders, and Cowl has established links with them. The coordinated attack on the Gates also falls into this category. The attack on the Carpenters was motivated by Listen who I think has been Cowl’s man inside the Fomor for years who was activated when the Red Court were wiped out as a contingency plan, to undermine Harry.

For all we know the vote against Harry came about due to triggers Peabody left in The Merlin etc which Cowl activated by a trigger word.

[vincentric]

For that to be true, Nameless would have had to totally fool Mab and Marcone.

Nameless was in Mab's Court until right after the Arctis Tor raid and then he was sent to Marcone to serve as his lawyer. But the Formor don't stick their noses out of the water until after Changes. So Nameless would have had to embed himself with the Formor and Ethniu in well enough to influence their policy while keeping a low profile from Mab and meeting with the Formor in secret while Marcone was in a shooting war with them.  You believe Ethniu and Corb would have formed policy based on advice from a flunky of Mab and Marcone? Or do you suppose that they listened without knowing who they were dealing with?

Since Nemesis comes out and boasts to Harry that it was the mastermind behind it all, it could only make sense if     Cowl is Nemesis' primary Nemfected and agent in the mortal world. in which case Nemesis is behind it all.

[Yuillegan]

My view is Cowl/Nameless was behind everything, the Fomor were his current cats paw to (1) to destroy Winter and the Accords, (2) set up an war between humanity and the supernatural world.

Thomas and the attack by the Corner Hounds were to destabilise the White Court and the Swartalves and the White Council, both involved Outsiders, and Cowl has established links with them. The coordinated attack on the Gates also falls into this category. The attack on the Carpenters was motivated by Listen who I think has been Cowl’s man inside the Fomor for years who was activated when the Red Court were wiped out as a contingency plan, to undermine Harry.

For all we know the vote against Harry came about due to triggers Peabody left in The Merlin etc which Cowl activated by a trigger word.

Do we think Cowl is the leader of the Black Court? Something tells me even he is just an agent. Perhaps they have no leader. Just a group of like-minded nutjobs and villains. Still not convinced he is Nameless, but I would love to know more about the connections between the two.

Agree about the various cat's paws and attacks. It is interesting that someone knew to attack the Carpenter's house. Speaks to Black Council involvement, particularly given how they like to attack Harry's most precious things (family and friends).

Not so sure about the Merlin being able to be "activated" with a trigger word. The threat of this is discounted rather strongly by Ebenezar in Turn Coat as older wizards can't change who they are as well as younger wizards. It's the smaller, subtler decisions being changed that is scarier. The sub-conscious being altered. Just look at the damage Lasciel did initially to Harry's psyche when her shadow (prior to being Lash) got into Harry's head. She wasn't driving the car. All she had to do was push the right buttons and Harry did all the rest.