How much information does the WC have

[vincentric]

That was against two who, in open combat, he beats easily even in Chicago. Lara lost it. Whamps are not someone who can attack a wizard at a distance and close to hand to hand. Being on Demonreach meant he could do it casually, and subdue them without hurting them.  And two, not 7 or 8, all more powerful than those two. If he attacks the Wardens, LtW and Eb open up, and who knows what Mai may be able to do? And the sinking in the ground - why do we assume LtW is the only shapeshifter? And it would only take one Warden to escape, then when you are against LtW and Eb, both better than you - they get you. Maybe he could face off against them - though the Blackstaff, I don't know. But far from proven.

You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.

[Mira]

You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.

  One of the first things Harry noticed in Turn Coat after he performed the ritual was he suddenly had knowledge of everything going on on the island.  That was before he understood what he had done, no one is going to get the drop on him now on the island.

[Ed0517]

   I doubt that it would be as you describe now that there is a Warden in charge and Alfred can fully engage the island defenses.  It is a maximum security prison, Merlin designed it most likely to secure it from beings a lot more powerful and bad assed than either Eb or LTW..

Which is why the simplest response is to slam the door on the well. Smallest area to defend. Let the invaders run nuts on the surface. and if they can break contain, the big bang.  But Harry, with the Wardens and Seniors, is not inside that perimeter. Alfred's main duty is preventing escape. Not protecting the warden. He has kept the doors closed without any warden at all, and will likely do so again.

[Ed0517]

They approach with caution because they know Alfred can squash any one of them. given time, all of them. They don't want Eb, Ltw, and a Warden to come back to the Merlin and say "Here's Harry's head!" and have him ask "Where is Mai and the other three Wardens?" "Oh, they got squished"

Doesn't mean Harry can beat them.

[Ed0517]

You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.

Alfred has always been somewhat passive when he is not under order. Remember him letting the fae pound on him? He didn't run Harry off. Yes, Lara and Freydis are faster. And they never got Harry into range of their attacks - they were all hand to hand. So Harry had time. If Harry faced off with the Wardens and SC, he is in range at all times. He zaps Eb and LtW, Mai zaps HIM. He has to take 7 out before they can fire.

Break LOS? First, he has to do it. You think that the Blackstaff never had to find an invisible target and deal with that? Body heat. heatbeat. Echolocation.  If Joe shapeshifts to a bird - he is not ON the island, he is ABOVE it.  All 8 have effective attacks, Lara and Freydis had NONE until they could close.  Alfred seems to be one at a time. Why didn't he scoop up  Corb and a couple of others when he got Ethniu? Because he does one thing at a time. Yes,  harry could fort up, go down into the cell block before the SC arrives, lock the door behind him, and tell Alfred to chase anyone who comes on the island away, and then let harry out. But that is not the same as fighting 3 Senior Council and 4 Wardens likely more on Morgan's level than, say, Carlos.   

I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.

[Mira]

I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.

Key word here is set foot on the island, once the defenses are set by the Warden, they don't set foot on the island.  Alfred isn't passive at all,  Freydis  was seen as a greater threat than Lara, every time she tried to step onto land, she was flung into the lake.

[Snark Knight]

If they came after him one at a time, like a Bruce Lee movie, sure. Alfred could take out the whole White council. But can he target multiple targets at once? We don't really know that.  When he fought Lara and Freydis on the island, he didn't ever target both at the same time. He bound Lara in the grass. Then he swatted Freydis with a tree. Lara pulled free, Harry put her in quicksand. Freydis came on, Harry sank her too. One at a time. The hardcases may not be able to hurt Alfred, but they could Harry. Alfred can protect him against any - but all? We don't know yet

That was basically just restraining them with the island's natural materials.

Telling Alfred "grab everyone and put them in the cells" is a completely different matter.

[vincentric]

Alfred has always been somewhat passive when he is not under order. Remember him letting the fae pound on him? He didn't run Harry off. Yes, Lara and Freydis are faster. And they never got Harry into range of their attacks - they were all hand to hand. So Harry had time. If Harry faced off with the Wardens and SC, he is in range at all times. He zaps Eb and LtW, Mai zaps HIM. He has to take 7 out before they can fire.

Break LOS? First, he has to do it. You think that the Blackstaff never had to find an invisible target and deal with that? Body heat. heatbeat. Echolocation.  If Joe shapeshifts to a bird - he is not ON the island, he is ABOVE it.  All 8 have effective attacks, Lara and Freydis had NONE until they could close.  Alfred seems to be one at a time. Why didn't he scoop up  Corb and a couple of others when he got Ethniu? Because he does one thing at a time. Yes,  harry could fort up, go down into the cell block before the SC arrives, lock the door behind him, and tell Alfred to chase anyone who comes on the island away, and then let harry out. But that is not the same as fighting 3 Senior Council and 4 Wardens likely more on Morgan's level than, say, Carlos.   

I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.

Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.

And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.

[Mira]

Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.

  And keep in mind, this was before Harry had learned anything about the island's defenses. All he needed to do was give the order, and it got Mab's attention because she knew that Alfred could do it.

And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.

Harry knows Carlos pretty well, he only needs to order Alfred/island to handle him based on his weaknesses and his strengths.  No contest.

hat was basically just restraining them with the island's natural materials.

Now you are woefully underestimating Alfred/island's strength, ever hear of "earth magic?"

Telling Alfred "grab everyone and put them in the cells" is a completely different matter.

No need to do that, it would never get that far, nor is the Senior Council dumb enough to rush the island in the first place.

[g33k]

... nor is the Senior Council dumb enough to rush the island in the first place.

I think this is generally true, though maybe individual SC members (lookin' at u Cristos!) might be dumb enough...

But nerds -- including Dresden nerds -- seem like moths to a flame, for "who beats..."  topics.

At a certain point, raw combat power is just not really relevant anymore, it's not going to carry the day:  they all have enough badassery to manage a killshot; it's just a question of who was better-prepared / sneakier / etc... for example, who thought to bring a bagfull of (iron-armed) Little Folk to a Queenfight?

[Ed0517]

Key word here is set foot on the island, once the defenses are set by the Warden, they don't set foot on the island.  Alfred isn't passive at all,  Freydis  was seen as a greater threat than Lara, every time she tried to step onto land, she was flung into the lake.

Keeping them off the island is a different matter from when they are ON the island and talking to Harry. Lot easier to prevent a beachhead than to fight one back into the sea. That is why I say the dome approach is plausible.

I think Harry was directing Alfred to toss Freydis - and that she was indeed treated as the LESSER threat - she was treated almost contemptuously. tossed aside as baggage. Harry wanted Lara close to talk to and calm down. She's the dangerous one, and the important one. Harry kills her, there's wergild, he kills Lara, there's war. Though the wizards may say he's rogue, and not one of us any more.  Kill him if you wish

[Ed0517]

Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.

And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.

Oh, no doubt Alfred can jail any of them, I said as much already. But do you think the Blackstaff has never had to track someone in fog? HARRY has done that with Arianna. I don't think that alone is enough. His worst outcome is Harry gets killed. his best outcome is likely that Alfred does manage to get them all before they get off the island. By running to the dock or flying off.

[Ed0517]

And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to ....

 

Harry knows Carlos pretty well, he only needs to order Alfred/island to handle him based on his weaknesses and his strengths.  No contest.

Mira, the LOS here is not Carlos, it's Line Of Sight for the combat. Three letter acronym time. It's Harry trying to effectively vanish

[Ed0517]

I think this is generally true, though maybe individual SC members (lookin' at u Cristos!) might be dumb enough...

But nerds -- including Dresden nerds -- seem like moths to a flame, for "who beats..."  topics.

At a certain point, raw combat power is just not really relevant anymore, it's not going to carry the day:  they all have enough badassery to manage a killshot; it's just a question of who was better-prepared / sneakier / etc... for example, who thought to bring a bagfull of (iron-armed) Little Folk to a Queenfight?

And Harry won that day by having too many attackers to parry. the 7 on the island might not all leave, but one gets Harry in that setting.  If they were going to launch a frontal assault from Chicago, no, I think not.

[vincentric]

Oh, no doubt Alfred can jail any of them, I said as much already. But do you think the Blackstaff has never had to track someone in fog? HARRY has done that with Arianna. I don't think that alone is enough. His worst outcome is Harry gets killed. his best outcome is likely that Alfred does manage to get them all before they get off the island. By running to the dock or flying off.

Arianna was in an arena and circling to attack because it was a 1v1 fight. In this scenario, Harry gives Alfred the order and runs away. No staying close, no positioning for an attack, not angling for a better view, he just runs away until Alfred says the job is done. Harry has perfect knowledge of the terrain and can sprint away with no need to watch his footing because of his intellectus. Any WC pursuit won't have these advantages and the terrain will be actively working against them. And all the while, Alfred will be taking them out. Unless they get Harry right at the start of the action, he's going to win. All he has to do is give the order and have Alfred start with Eb. Alfred is going to be doing all the fighting and it has shown to be able to withstand the combined power of both Ladies and the power to take Mab with no prep or binding while on the island.