Why is Mab trying to change Harry?

[SerScot]

Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her.  If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Because she is afraid Harry will change her.

Harry’s impact on Molly has changed or unlocked previously unforeseen potential in the Winter Lady’s Mantle (The Good People) and he has ‘corrupted’ the Shadow of a Fallen Angel, bound the Little Folk and Alfred and shaped the new Knight of the Cross, the worlds most powerful Ectomancer and both Ladies. it must be a concern of Mab what his influence is on her and her mantle.

She therefore wants Harry to be more familiar but Harry is a Destroyer and her Doom, bringing change and change is coming. It’s rather ironic that Harry hates change but is a harbinger of it.

[Mira]

  I think it is more that gets the results that she, herself wants but is unable to order because of who she is.  Slate would follow orders until he betrayed her, but the results of his following orders were not good.

[forumghost]

Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her.  If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?

I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.

As for why? Because she's Mab. She is Callous and Cruel, and Cold, and Ruthless beyond measure- and she firmly believes that is the best way to be for her purposes.

Tldr: Mab is a Hard Sidhe making Hard Decisions while Hard.

[Mira]

I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.

 I disagree, her coldness and hardness are needed, however while she may not admit it to him, she also needs his conscience and compassion to unite for the final BAT.  That is why she backed him at the meeting of the Accords after the battle for Chicago.  Harry was the only one who could get those concessions, she wouldn't know how, but she is astute enough to know they were needed.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

As I said, Harry is changing Mab and her Mantle, or at least unlocking new potential far more than she or his Mantle is changing Harry. Again look at the interplay between Mab and Molly in the Good People, Molly is forcing something new on Mab and neither Mantle is stopping it, and that makes Mab uncomfortable. Has she been wrong for over a millenia?

[Mira]

As I said, Harry is changing Mab and her Mantle, or at least unlocking new potential far more than she or his Mantle is changing Harry. Again look at the interplay between Mab and Molly in the Good People, Molly is forcing something new on Mab and neither Mantle is stopping it, and that makes Mab uncomfortable. Has she been wrong for over a millenia?

  I don't think she has been wrong per say, she has managed to keep this world safe.  However the world has changed over the millenia, so tactics have to change as well.  Mab was human once, but most of that humanity has left her, she is 99.99% Fae now, so she lacks understanding.  I actually think Molly will help her more in this than Harry because she is less confrontational than Harry is.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s good cop bad cop with Molly and Harry. Molly is the perfect subject and Winter Lady, and Harry consistently, persistently continues to be Harry, a terrible subject but a wonderful Winter Knight. Molly mollifies Mab, Harry harries Mab. Both force change on her at a time when she needs to change. Their predecessors bad as they were merely helped reinforce Mab’s existing status quo. When Mab hired Harry back in Summer Knight did she expect this? Be careful for you wish for Mab.

[Mira]

It’s good cop bad cop with Molly and Harry. Molly is the perfect subject and Winter Lady, and Harry consistently, persistently continues to be Harry, a terrible subject but a wonderful Winter Knight. Molly mollifies Mab, Harry harries Mab. Both force change on her at a time when she needs to change. Their predecessors bad as they were merely helped reinforce Mab’s existing status quo. When Mab hired Harry back in Summer Knight did she expect this? Be careful for you wish for Mab.

Yeah, I think Mab is well aware of this, that is why she is pleased when Harry stands up to her, even if it does piss her off a bit.  I think Heaven is aware of it also, that is why I think Uriel helped maneuver Harry into the job and do what needed to be done to keep him in it.  I think Uriel had a little something to do with that bullet that Kincaid shot.  While it did hit Harry's heart, it was off just enough for Harry to survive falling into the cold water and Mab's waiting arms... Then the soul walk about, and last but not least his seven little words that made Harry realize he was still basically his own  man..

[SerScot]

I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.

As for why? Because she's Mab. She is Callous and Cruel, and Cold, and Ruthless beyond measure- and she firmly believes that is the best way to be for her purposes.

Tldr: Mab is a Hard Sidhe making Hard Decisions while Hard.

The will and defiance are tied to the consciene and compassion.  You don’t get the former without the latter.  Surely Mab is bright enough to realize that basic fact?

[Mira]

The will and defiance are tied to the consciene and compassion.  You don’t get the former without the latter.  Surely Mab is bright enough to realize that basic fact?

  She is, but the last person she'd admit it to is Harry.  But she shows it in small ways, like little Maggie's Christmas gift, because she also knows that Harry would never accept the fact that she realizes it.

[seanham]

Maybe Mab isn't trying to change Harry. Harry's defining characteristic is his Will, he has overcome dozens of foes that should have beaten him, but he is still around and doing his thing. Mab is forcing Harry to make hard choices and make sacrifices, all while knowing Harry is going to fight her every step of the way. Harry is a knight worth Mab's trouble because he won't cave to Mab's desires. In Cold Days(?) Harry says something to the effect of, "You can't afford a mediocre knight" sorry don't have the exact quote at hand. Most every knight before Harry has been a mindless thug (yes, there are exceptions but not many); Harry won't get to this point because of his Will. Harry Will's himself through big bad after big bad, not because he is the strongest or the smartest in every fight but because he believes it is right and those big bads need to be put down or because it was Right. By Mab pinning Harry into corners and making him make choices, she is sharpening his Will and focusing him on her enemies and on what she thinks needs to be done. Harry will and has gone along with this because he realizes that even though Mab is evil, she is the evil humanity needs. Harry will continue to face down Mab's foes because it is right, and he will come out on top because of his strength of Will, and it's what he needs to do to protect his family, friends, and world. A tangible example of this is when Harry describes "fighting" Mother Winter in CD as a grain of sand against an ocean; the grain of sand can be pushed around but will not break. Harry will not break, he may need to be strengthened and supported, but he won't break or bend that is what Mab needs.

[g33k]

Mab isn't trying to change Harry; or if she is, only gently.

Yes, gently.

I know, right?
Mab?
Gently??!?
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!<gasp><wheeze>

"Gently" as in:  how a master-smith makes a damascene'd blade.
It involves intense fire, and a hammer; but it needs the right materials and must be done carefully... gently.

Mab needs her Knight to be the master of the WK mantle; but the mantle is incredibly powerful, and mostly becomes the master of the Knight (as it did with Lloyd Slate).

So she is forging her knight with intense methods, but carefully-crafted ones, and (however much it doesn't feel like it to Harry) she's being gentle.

Because if Harry breaks, she needs as much time as possible to craft a new Knight.

Because the Stars and Stones are coming soon.

[Mira]

"Gently" as in:  how a master-smith makes a damascene'd blade.
It involves intense fire, and a hammer; but it needs the right materials and must be done carefully... gently.

Yes, and many layers of the right combo of metals, percentage of carbon, intense heat, yes, but too hot or too cold and the sword will not quench properly, it can become brittle and break or never harden and sharpen properly... There are many layers to Harry, he is a complex man, he is in the fire being brought up to temperature, but yet to be quenched...  Will he become a strong sharp blade? Or will he be warped by the process or turn out brittle and break in the final test?

[Ed0517]

Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her.  If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?

I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.