The fae slaves

[LostInTime]

I finally figured out what bothers me about the fae queen mantle wearers. At least for Sarissa and Molly, the other queens we don't know how they came to bear the mantles. Maybe they volunteered, maybe they didn't.

But Molly and Sarissa are slaves.

A slave cannot choose their own destiny. They are not free to leave at any time of their own free will. And before you get on about Butcher's past choices limiting your current choices, let's apply that to slave-held people in the past. Did their decision to draw water from a certain river lead to them being captured and sold on to slaveholding people?

They may be given power, but they're still in a gilded cage. Worse, since they're immortal, it's an eternal cage. They can't even easily escape it in death.

[g33k]

... But Molly and Sarissa are slaves ...

I think it's not exactly "slavery," for example their movement is largely unrestrained.  They can travel the world wherever they want, whenever they want.

But, I take your point -- there is no "I quit" clause in the Mantle.

It's more like being part of a criminal gang (that kills you rather than letting you quit); which makes Miss Carpenter a gangster Moll...   

... They can't even easily escape it in death ...

  You've overlooked Hallowe'en (and other conjunctions).  The Ladies -- if they seriously wanted out of their jobs, badly enough that they'd rather die than continue en-Mantled -- have a chance at least once a year; plus an unknown-to-us number of other occasions (but I presume less-common, or Samhain wouldn't be Such A Big Deal for the immortal community).
 

[forumghost]

I think it's not exactly "slavery," for example their movement is largely unrestrained.  They can travel the world wherever they want, whenever they want.

But, I take your point -- there is no "I quit" clause in the Mantle.

It's more like being part of a criminal gang (that kills you rather than letting you quit); which makes Miss Carpenter a gangster Moll...   

Personally I consider the Mantle to be worse then slavery. Even a slave can still reside safely in the sanctity of their own mind. Those with a Mantle though? Straight up mindraped into being what their masters want them to be.

[Ed0517]

But, I take your point -- there is no "I quit" clause in the Mantle.

Didn't Mab's predecessor walk away?

[g33k]

Personally I consider the Mantle to be worse then slavery. Even a slave can still reside safely in the sanctity of their own mind. Those with a Mantle though? Straight up mindraped into being what their masters want them to be.

Molly seems to be keeping her humanity intact (as does Harry), fwiw.

She still has to follow the dictates of Faerie Law (keeping bargains, not lying, etc) & Ladymantles (staying virginal (or at least not becoming a mother; specifics are a bit unclear), gifting vassals on Samhain/Christmas, etc).  However:  whereas Bob said "Welcome to the new Maeve, same as the old Maeve..." Kringle said "You aren't much like the last Lady, are you."  Bob was wrong.

On the less-pleasant side of things -- Maeve had plenty of time to be molded into being the "ideal" Winter Lady, but she was still free-minded enough to be open to whatever temptations Nemesis had strewn in her path.
 

[LostInTime]

I think that Maeve resisting the mantle drove her crazy. I think that Molly's mental defense training, being hunted and on the run as the Ragged Lady, and straight up fighting for her life in mental combat against Corpsetaker, plus the recent fighting off fae 'frenemies' when she sleeps, will make her mentally tough enough to resist and survive. Plus, Maeve was Winter Lady for up to 300 years. Molly's only got to make it the last book.

[Mira]

I think that Maeve resisting the mantle drove her crazy. I think that Molly's mental defense training, being hunted and on the run as the Ragged Lady, and straight up fighting for her life in mental combat against Corpsetaker, plus the recent fighting off fae 'frenemies' when she sleeps, will make her mentally tough enough to resist and survive. Plus, Maeve was Winter Lady for up to 300 years. Molly's only got to make it the last book.

I don't think the Mantle drove her crazy, I think she always had issues, but was coping.  Nemesis  broke down those coping mechanisms, then it drove her crazy.

[vincentric]

In CD, Sarissa tells Harry that she has a mental illness and part of her deal with Mab was helping her cope. Since Maeve was her twin, she may have also started out with that same problem.

[g33k]

In CD, Sarissa tells Harry that she has a mental illness and part of her deal with Mab was helping her cope. Since Maeve was her twin, she may have also started out with that same problem.

Sarissa had spotted Maeve's increasing instability for herself, but I think that was -- unknown to Sarissa -- Nemfection.  Being a changeling herself, I think Sarissa was subject to "urges" that most mortals are not... easy enough (with a bit of "help") to process that as potential mental-illness.

I think Mab "helped" Sarissa think that way, with implied consequences & by mentioning worst-case situations, e.g. having ID'ed Maeve as having been Nemfected, she might imply to Sarissa that she'd "could" have a similar outcome (Nemesis likes to target the Ladies, evidently!), without ever explaining to Sarissa what was really going on...

It's a very Mab approach to mothering.

[Mira]

I think Mab "helped" Sarissa think that way, with implied consequences & by mentioning worst-case situations, e.g. having ID'ed Maeve as having been Nemfected, she might imply to Sarissa that she'd "could" have a similar outcome (Nemesis likes to target the Ladies, evidently!), without ever explaining to Sarissa what was really going on...

  Very Mab, indeed.
  What a difference a few  minutes make, since Maeve was born first, she was pegged to be Winter Lady.  Thus she was subjected to the though love that Mab thought necessary for a Winter Lady in these times, meanwhile her twin received all the nurturing mother/daughter things that both needed for normal emotional development.  It created resentments in Maeve, that Nemesis was able to exploit.  When we first meet Maeve at Mac's place, she seems very punk rocker, but not the sexual voyeur that Harry and Billy meet at her court in the Chicago Underground. 

[g33k]

...  When we first meet Maeve at Mac's place, she seems very punk rocker, but not the sexual voyeur that Harry and Billy meet at her court in the Chicago Underground.

I'm pretty sure Summer Knight's scene in Undertown is the first time Maeve appears on-screen.

Proven Guilty's scene (at Mac's) comes later, but she's still very very sexual, not "just" punk-rocker, but coming-on-strong, "Your Boyfriend Wants Me" crop-top, being sexual at Lily, at Fix, at Dresden himself; she only backs down when Harry turns it around on her, answering her sexual line of questioning (reminding Maeve he killed the Summer Lady with cold iron).

[Mira]

I'm pretty sure Summer Knight's scene in Undertown is the first time Maeve appears on-screen.

Proven Guilty's scene (at Mac's) comes later, but she's still very very sexual, not "just" punk-rocker, but coming-on-strong, "Your Boyfriend Wants Me" crop-top, being sexual at Lily, at Fix, at Dresden himself; she only backs down when Harry turns it around on her, answering her sexual line of questioning (reminding Maeve he killed the Summer Lady with cold iron).

I am on pain medication for a broken wrist, surgery tomorrow, I just remember the scenes, I couldn't remember books or order really. 

[Ed0517]

I am on pain medication for a broken wrist, surgery tomorrow, I just remember the scenes, I couldn't remember books or order really.

Ouch! Good luck!

[g33k]

I am on pain medication for a broken wrist, surgery tomorrow...

Sorry to hear that!
Wishing you all the best for a successful surgery & quick+complete recovery.

[Mira]

Sorry to hear that!
Wishing you all the best for a successful surgery & quick+complete recovery.

Thanks...