Will we see more of the Grey Council in “Twelve Months”

[Ed0517]

Naw, they still want him dead, doesn't matter if he has pissed them off since or ever has.  Its like Carlos, he drank the kool aid big time, a lot of has to do with getting mangled because he tried to have sex with the Winter Lady, I suppose he blames Harry for that.. Or is it jealousy?  Think about it, Harry gets to play in a lot of different sand boxes, while Carlos who has always walked the straight and the narrow, can't or in the case of Molly almost loses his manhood while trying.. Which may be his problem...

But there is the "want him dead" and "willing to kill him/have him killed" and a difference between the two. They are not sending Eb out after him. Yet, at least. 

[Mira]

But there is the "want him dead" and "willing to kill him/have him killed" and a difference between the two. They are not sending Eb out after him. Yet, at least.

Well, Eb was still in surgery when they made those decisions and then recovery, he may not have the orders yet. 

[vincentric]

Well, Eb was still in surgery when they made those decisions and then recovery, he may not have the orders yet.

Good point about not having the orders. Eb and LTW would certainly have been against the expulsion order and may even decline to accept any further orders. I doubt they would do it publicly, but they may tell the Merlin to pound sand in a Senior Council meeting.

[g33k]

Not since he got kicked out. Hasn't peeved people off since. They wanted him dead before, still want him dead, and will want him dead until they die, which Marcone has noted happens a lot to Harry's opponents, whether he wants them dead or not.

Naw, they still want him dead, doesn't matter if he has pissed them off since or ever has.

I think the "want him dead" crowd probably argues & proselytizes among the fence-sitter types, so -- even if Harry has done nothing new to piss anyone off -- there's likely a slow WC slide towards the anti-Harry side of things.

Harry has very few really-strong advocates on the White Council / Senior Council; even Eb is mostly-convinced Harry is a wrong-headed fool, which... doesn't make for strong advocacy.  Rashid is far too much into "mysterious ways" and "keeping his own council;" I don't see him lobbying/advocating (at least not much) on Harry's behalf.

...  Its like Carlos, he drank the kool aid big time... Harry gets to play in a lot of different sand boxes, while Carlos who has always walked the straight and the narrow ...

Carlos is an interesting case, and I'm keeping my mind open.

He and Harry had a frank discussion (I think at the end of White Night?) where Harry expressed the idea of a "Black Council" with agents/moles inside the WC, and Carlos pegged Harry's broad strategy as being to work the darker side of things, trying to find the Bad Guys' inroads from the outside (since he has always been a kinda-outsider / lone-wolf / black-sheep figure); and Carlos agreed that he in turn would work the "insider" angle.

So I think it's absolutely possible that Carlos is talking and acting like he has totally lost trust in Dresden, as part of this broad strategy of painting Harry as an exile & un-trusted, cut off from his main Warden ally, etc... entirely as part of their plan to cooperate in "working the problem from both sides."  I'm not convinced of this WAG, but I think it highly possible (also possible that he has lost faith in Dresden, of course!).  Plus, it'd give Jim another shot at writing a "Harry is an idiot" scene with Carlos (which I think Jim enjoys).

[Mira]

So I think it's absolutely possible that Carlos is talking and acting like he has totally lost trust in Dresden, as part of this broad strategy of painting Harry as an exile & un-trusted, cut off from his main Warden ally, etc... entirely as part of their plan to cooperate in "working the problem from both sides."  I'm not convinced of this WAG, but I think it highly possible (also possible that he has lost faith in Dresden, of course!).  Plus, it'd give Jim another shot at writing a "Harry is an idiot" scene with Carlos (which I think Jim enjoys).

  I don't buy that at all.  I think it is too significant that Jim wrote a whole short story where Carlos and Molly work together and try to consummate the attraction they had for one another since White Night, and have it all go so terribly wrong.  I think it did more than physical harm to Carlos, and he blames the Winter Court, maybe Fae in general, but certainly anyone connected with the Winter Court for what happened to him.  I think it is very true that neither Molly nor Harry were aware that this would happen if a vanilla human tried to have casual sex with the Winter Lady.  However does Carlos believe that?  In my opinion all through Peace Talks and Battle Ground there was an odor of mistrust on the part of Carlos of Harry.  I have no doubt that someone on the Senior Council is feeding into that.. However I also think that Mab deliberately left out that little rule when she was showing Molly what her duties were, she also neglected to tell Harry. Why?  Because she thinks it is to her advantage for both Harry and Molly to be isolated from the White Council as much as possible.   

[forumghost]

Oh yeah that's absolutely what Mab is doing. It's textbook stuff for abusers (and make no mistake, that's what Mab is) to isolate their victims from others to better manipulate them. It's why she cut off Harry when he was stuck on demonreach, it's why she tries to get Molly to abandon her human side/family.

 It's much easier to control people when they have nobody but you to turn to.

[g33k]

Oh yeah that's absolutely what Mab is doing. It's textbook stuff for abusers (and make no mistake, that's what Mab is) to isolate their victims from others to better manipulate them. It's why she cut off Harry when he was stuck on demonreach, it's why she tries to get Molly to abandon her human side/family.

 It's much easier to control people when they have nobody but you to turn to.

I think it's more complicated than that.  Yes, Mab is abusive.  But she also was entirely-aware of the entity growing in the mind of her Winter Knight, and the "ticking time-bomb" effect.  She kept Dresden isolated as a short-term tactic, not a long-term strategy; just until she could leverage that "time bomb" to make him do her bidding.  Since then, she hasn't particularly been putting in much effort to isolate him; nor Molly.

As others have said, she's trying to get Molly to abandon her human side because -- in Mab's view -- humans are weak.  And so Mab is terribly frightened:  the Queen of Winter (chief defender of the mortal world from Outsider-invasion) has no backstop, no failsafe; the Lady is still too human, too frail.  If Mab falls (and we know from Ethniu that it's very-possible, and getting more so), the Winter Queen will be a mortal who won't likely last the turning of the seasons.

[Mira]

As others have said, she's trying to get Molly to abandon her human side because -- in Mab's view -- humans are weak.  And so Mab is terribly frightened:  the Queen of Winter (chief defender of the mortal world from Outsider-invasion) has no backstop, no failsafe; the Lady is still too human, too frail.  If Mab falls (and we know from Ethniu that it's very-possible, and getting more so), the Winter Queen will be a mortal who won't likely last the turning of the seasons.

Yes, Mab is frightened, she also learns from past mistakes and I think she may feel that the best lessons are learned, the hard way.  In Peace Talks Corb mocks her about her being crying pimply faced young woman crying [I assume when she was still Lady] because her lover dumped her.  Apparently she told her own daughter Maeve about the no sex rule for Winter Ladies, and it made her twisted and vulnerable to infestation by Nemesis.  So perhaps she thought that better for Molly to learn the hard way because it wastes less time.. It is possible that she never considered the other side of the equation, the man in question.  We were all a bit shocked when she suggested that Harry kill Molly if something happened to her.  However we know she had no problem ordering Harry to kill her own daughter.  Actually I still maintain though Murphy may have pulled the trigger, Mab's finger was moving before hand, that she indeed killed her own daughter because she felt it had to be done.  Maybe since the Mantle will flow into the nearest vessel, Mab is willing to gamble that the mantle will flow into a stronger vessel.. Again saving time.

[g33k]

Yes, Mab is frightened, she also learns from past mistakes and I think she may feel that the best lessons are learned, the hard way.  In Peace Talks Corb mocks her about her being crying pimply faced young woman crying [I assume when she was still Lady] because her lover dumped her ...

I am guessing Mab was a mortal practitioner, in the time Corb was mentioning.
Certainly nobody carrying the Winter Lady mantle would be pimply-faced, the mantle would fix that right up.

My own WAG is that Mab was never Winter Lady at all:  there was a massive battle where the Queen and the Lady both died, and Mother Winter had to take both Mantles, and bestow them as best she could (from among limited options).  Maybe Mab was only Winter Lady for a very short time... but of course the Winter Lady wouldn't have a lover at all, so Mab may not have been eligible for the role.  All in all, I'm betting on a direct promotion from mortal-practitioner to Winter Queen.

... Apparently she told her own daughter Maeve about the no sex rule for Winter Ladies, and it made her twisted and vulnerable to infestation by Nemesis ...

Well, Maeve was hundreds of years old.  Maybe Mab warned her, or maybe Maeve learned on her own in a similar manner as Molly did.
I don't think we know that the "sexual frustration issue" was key to Maeve's Nemfection (is there WoJ on that?), but it seems likely.

Honestly, though, the on-screen stuff we see suggests that it's the ability to lie that really delighted Maeve.  Her big rant at the end -- about finally outmaneuvering Mab -- suggests that Maeve has been trying-and-failing to get a substantive victory over the Queen for much of her Winter Lady tenure, so the ability to lie may have been the lure she could not resist.  We see Maeve lie, but we never actually know if she broke the "virginity clause" or not.
 

[Mira]

Honestly, though, the on-screen stuff we see suggests that it's the ability to lie that really delighted Maeve.  Her big rant at the end -- about finally outmaneuvering Mab -- suggests that Maeve has been trying-and-failing to get a substantive victory over the Queen for much of her Winter Lady tenure, so the ability to lie may have been the lure she could not resist.  We see Maeve lie, but we never actually know if she broke the "virginity clause" or not.
 

  True, we don't, however we witness her twisted fascination with sex at her court in the Chicago Underground.  While sex is only one aspect of mortal life, it is an important one.  Meanwhile her sister is living a normal mortal life, and what is more seems to have a real mother/daughter relationship with Mab which really pushed her resentment.  Yes, lying may of delighted her, but was it her or Nemesis that was doing the lying through her?

I am guessing Mab was a mortal practitioner, in the time Corb was mentioning.
Certainly nobody carrying the Winter Lady mantle would be pimply-faced, the mantle would fix that right up.

Agreed, but while that may be true, Corb wouldn't hesitate to use that phrase as an insult.. He may have only meant that she was a very young woman at the time, by saying she had pimples he was saying she was a teenager at the time or barely out of her teenage years, even if she was Lady at the time.  It could be very true that Mab did weep over losing her lover.  Thing about it this way, Corb was saying all of this as a "taunt" saying that Mab is weak or once was very mortal.  Remember what Kringle warned Harry about in Cold Days?  It was when Mab allowed herself briefly to show Harry her grief over her daughter's death.  Kringle told Harry that Mab was a very proud creature, and showing to others that she even appeared vulnerable she'd never forgive and would lose it.  That is what Corb was doing with his taunt, telling others that this powerful Queen of Winter was once a very human creature, ergo really weak.

[Tinfoil hat]

  I don't buy that at all.  I think it is too significant that Jim wrote a whole short story where Carlos and Molly work together and try to consummate the attraction they had for one another since White Night, and have it all go so terribly wrong.  I think it did more than physical harm to Carlos, and he blames the Winter Court, maybe Fae in general, but certainly anyone connected with the Winter Court for what happened to him.  I think it is very true that neither Molly nor Harry were aware that this would happen if a vanilla human tried to have casual sex with the Winter Lady.  However does Carlos believe that?  In my opinion all through Peace Talks and Battle Ground there was an odor of mistrust on the part of Carlos of Harry.  I have no doubt that someone on the Senior Council is feeding into that.. However I also think that Mab deliberately left out that little rule when she was showing Molly what her duties were, she also neglected to tell Harry. Why?  Because she thinks it is to her advantage for both Harry and Molly to be isolated from the White Council as much as possible.

Yeah. Carlos no longer trusts fae. Carlos trusted Molly saw her has a friend. Sure she was the Winter lady but she was still the same girl to him. How many people know that the mantle can protect it self. And how many are going to share that info. Carlos probably now thinks that the real Molly and harry are dead. And winter is using them as meat suits using them for winter's ends. The real harry and molly buried to deep to stop the fae.  The Black council is probably telling him this.


Mab is a lot of things, monster, defender of reality,  monster, abuser and anything else neccessary to do her job.

Yes, Mab is frightened, she also learns from past mistakes and I think she may feel that the best lessons are learned, the hard way.  In Peace Talks Corb mocks her about her being crying pimply faced young woman crying [I assume when she was still Lady] because her lover dumped her.  Apparently she told her own daughter Maeve about the no sex rule for Winter Ladies, and it made her twisted and vulnerable to infestation by Nemesis.  So perhaps she thought that better for Molly to learn the hard way because it wastes less time.. It is possible that she never considered the other side of the equation, the man in question.  We were all a bit shocked when she suggested that Harry kill Molly if something happened to her.  However we know she had no problem ordering Harry to kill her own daughter.  Actually I still maintain though Murphy may have pulled the trigger, Mab's finger was moving before hand, that she indeed killed her own daughter because she felt it had to be done.  Maybe since the Mantle will flow into the nearest vessel, Mab is willing to gamble that the mantle will flow into a stronger vessel.. Again saving time.

Mab seems to think only the job matters anything else is secondary. In Mabs eyes Molly is too summer to be Queen. Would Molly sacrifice any of her family to protect reality, harry , Margie. The answer is no. She isnt ready until she can do that.

[Mira]

Yeah. Carlos no longer trusts fae. Carlos trusted Molly saw her has a friend. Sure she was the Winter lady but she was still the same girl to him. How many people know that the mantle can protect it self. And how many are going to share that info. Carlos probably now thinks that the real Molly and harry are dead. And winter is using them as meat suits using them for winter's ends. The real harry and molly buried to deep to stop the fae.  The Black council is probably telling him this.

Yes, I believe that is exactly what he thinks. And yes, if it isn't someone on the Black Council telling him this, someone on the Senior Council is. 

Mab seems to think only the job matters anything else is secondary. In Mabs eyes Molly is too summer to be Queen. Would Molly sacrifice any of her family to protect reality, harry , Margie. The answer is no. She isnt ready until she can do that.

And no, she isn't ready to do that, and Harry will never be ready to kill Molly.. He'd kill the Winter Lady before he'd killed Molly.

[Ed0517]

Yes, I believe that is exactly what he thinks. And yes, if it isn't someone on the Black Council telling him this, someone on the Senior Council is. 

...you say that like being in one means you are not in the other... I think the Carlos Whisperer is in both...

[g33k]

... we witness her twisted fascination with sex at her court in the Chicago Underground ...

It seems the Ladies are "supposed to be" erotic & tempting.
Aurora was.  Lily already was, as a changeling, but got more-so.
Maeve was.  Molly was, as a mortal; but (again) got moreso.
(of course, the ladies are also supposed to be chaste & virginal)

As far as a "twisted fascination with sex" goes... I'm not sure how well any of us would deal with a hyped-up libido & centuries of chastity!  But the Ladies are "frozen in time," perpetually stuck at that horny-late-teen stage; and Winter is supposed to be cold, and cruel.

Maeve seemed to have a "winter-lady"-ish  sort of sexuality to her.

...  Yes, lying may of delighted her, but was it her or Nemesis that was doing the lying through her? ...

The Lady-Mantle is, I think, strong enough that Nemesis couldn't straight-up override Maeve.

Cat Sith almost broke free, for a moment.  The Lady is stronger than almost all the other fae; the Queen and the Mother are stronger than the Lady, of course, and (in Winter) Harry seems to think that Lea is stronger than the Lady, too... and I think that may be it?  Kringle-Mantle...?  I don't think the Master of the Hunt is as strong.

But Maeve (in the climactic scene on the island) seemed to be reveling in lying-for-the-sake-of-lying, not telling a lie that would serve Nemesis' purpose.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I believe Nemesis can override a Lady IF the Mantle wearer cooperates. Maeve was a lousy, rebellious Winter Lady well before Nemesis. The Redcap testified to that.

Nemesis wouldn’t find such a reception in Molly, especially as Molly is exceptionally talented in this area and proved herself against Corpsetaker. Indeed that battle may have been her successful audition piece for a Ladies Mantle. Lily could still be tricked into submission by Nemesis, and that may have been Mab’s play, Molly to replace Lily. Sarissa wouldn’t, to smart and too tough, Mab still won.

Lea was granted additional power and now stands second in Winter after Mab. That might have been to make her too powerful to be susceptible to Nemesis again.

As it stands the top four powers in Winter are all now Nemesis proof, and the top three in Summer are as well. I suspect Elder Gruff, Kringle and the Erlking are as well by a combination of power and will. The Winter Knight is immune as a Starborn. The Summer Knight is not. Fix is a likely target of Nemesis, given Nemesis modus operandi.