So Fitz is...

[Ed0517]

I don't read it that way.  They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.

They would have likely had the equivalent to a "suspect is considered armed and dangerous" warning but it is an arrest team, not an assassination squad.

They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.

Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch- 

[Mira]

Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch- 

  It is the second book in the series, Jim could have changed his mind, but then again the circle has never been tested on page against the like.  Uriel did shrug his shoulders at the pitiful circle a wounded Harry made to try to contain him in Changes, but that wasn't the same kind of circle.

I don't read it that way.  They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.

It really wasn't a trial, it was more of a kangaroo court, that is what Harry objected to. That is what he insisted on for Molly, a real trial at the end of the book.  But the point is not the Korean's kid guilt, and yeah, most likely he was not redeemable and deserved the chop.  The point is what the Merlin said about the risks and the damage these kids do if they are not redeemed.  The kinds of beings these circles are meant to contain are beyond dangerous, and are not spoken about by the White Council.  Harry hints that knowing how to build such a circle flirts with the dark arts.  It isn't just about having one of these circles in your back yard, but what you could call up with it.

They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.

She wasn't a minor wizard, she wasn't even an apprentice, she had a little talent.  The speech Harry gave her about the circle, what it could contain, controlling such a thing sounded a lot like the one the Merlin gave him about young would be warlocks, the immense amount of danger, deaths, if they were allowed to live and something went wrong.. Which it did, and Kim and a lot of innocents died.  No, I doubt the Merlin or the rest of the Council would have merely given Kim a traffic ticket and sent her on her way with a warning.   You say a soul gaze would have cleared it up.. Maybe, but then again the subtle undercurrent in the conversation between Kim and Harry, it was about her attitude.  Why didn't she explain about Finn?  I think Harry would have gone with her and tried to help Finn.  Kim wanted Harry's knowledge, but she wanted to handle it herself, she wanted the credit.. In other words she was beginning down the road to the dark side, I believe the White Council would have seen it the same way.

[g33k]

  Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question ...

Oh no, Chauncy lies.  He uses the "truth" (as you say:  partial, and qualified; and embedded with distractions, red herrings, and other ("faerie-like") deceptions); but Chaunzaggoroth is a demon.  He belongs to Lucifer, the Prince of Lies... whose Principality is lies.

Chauncy also tells the truth.  He uses the truth strategically, tactically.  It disarms his victims, sets their defenses at ease, lures them in.  The "truth" is his stock in trade, it seems.  But really, Chauncy deals in information; facts, divorced from "truth."  The sun rises in the East... except, it doesn't:  the sun doesn't move at all, but the rotation of the Earth makes it seem to.
 

[g33k]

... As for Harry's reaction, it had nothing to do with what Chauncy told him about Finn.  It had all to do about the information Chauncy volunteered about his mother and father ...

Chauncy hit Harry in the feels, with the info (and lures of more info) about his mother & father, and their deaths.  He hoped to get Harry to make that final bargain.

But no, Harry rejected it; and then Chauncy made his fatal error -- he lost his temper.  Harry had to contain him again against escaping from the summoning-circle, and banish him... and then:

I was shaking all over, and not only with the cold of my laboratory.  I had badly misjudged Chaunzaggoroh, thought him a somewhat reliable, if dangerous, source of information, willing to do reasonable business.  But the rage, the fury, the frustrated malice that had been in his final offer, those last words, had shown his true colors.  He had lied to me, deceived me about his true nature, played me along like a sucker and then tried to set the hook, hard.  I felt like such an idiot.

The closest Chauncy came to an overt "lie" was at the very beginning of the chapter, the opening scene, after he failed to initially escape the circle:

You understand, I must observe the formalities

Jim played it for comic relief, with the prim Oxford accent & wire-frame spec's.  Chauncy himself plays it for comic relief, implying "see, really I'm Bruce Banner, that Hulk-out is ... just a formality."

And indeed Chaunzaggoroth must "observe the formalities" -- failure to do so will attract attention from Upstairs; Uriel's subtle hand, or just a good-ol-fashioned Smiting.

But Chauncy's attempt to get free wasn't one of those "formalities" he must observe, it was a genuine, full-effort attempt to get free, to get his claws on Dresden.

[Mira]

Oh no, Chauncy lies.  He uses the "truth" (as you say:  partial, and qualified; and embedded with distractions, red herrings, and other ("faerie-like") deceptions); but Chaunzaggoroth is a demon.  He belongs to Lucifer, the Prince of Lies... whose Principality is lies.

Chauncy also tells the truth.  He uses the truth strategically, tactically.  It disarms his victims, sets their defenses at ease, lures them in.  The "truth" is his stock in trade, it seems.  But really, Chauncy deals in information; facts, divorced from "truth."  The sun rises in the East... except, it doesn't:  the sun doesn't move at all, but the rotation of the Earth makes it seem to.

Chauncy hadn't lied to Harry up to that point, at least Harry thought he hadn't. That is why he continued to use him for information.  I  doubt that he had, every fisherman knows to catch fish you need good bait.  For bait, Chanucy used the truth, then he tried to set the hook, but Harry got off the hook, then Chauncy started to lie.  In the end Harry was pissed with himself for being such a fool to trust Chauncy in the first place.

[g33k]

... How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? ...

Hell itself has strong interest in having these sorts of summonings available to mortals -- and has the means to get them into mortals' hands!
Harry says:

Chaunzaggoroth was a popular source of information among wizards who went to the underworld in need of it.

I think it safe to presume there are (at least) dozens of such relatively-well-known & relatively-oft-summoned demons, each with (at least) dozens of people in possession of a summoning ritual.  Information-brokers, like Chauncy.  Hexing/Cursing sorts, for those seeking vengeance.  Incubi/succubi answering to the Sin of Lust.  Etc.

[g33k]

The books tell you how summoning got out to the general public. A plan by the White Council to weaken the process by having everyone trying to do it.(Maybe White Knight or possibly earlier, I forget) 

I think that was a specific tactic for specific beings.  Unique entities, whose summonings could be undercut by having many individual castings.

Entities like Chauncy are more dime-a-dozen, and it's exponentially harder when you have to potentially have dozens (or hundreds?) of such entities whose summoning's you have to undercut.

[g33k]

Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?

I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.

It's worth noticing, I think, that the whole "Black Council" thing -- Harry's name for Harry's theoretical group (and maybe Eb's) -- is largely based on circumstantial evidence, on inference.  Note also that the "Circle" mentioned in the conversation between Vito & Madrigal doesn't seem to exist:  Vito went to Cowl, and their conversation made it clear that Vito was explicitly misleading Madrigal, who had no idea what was actually going on.  Also worth noting on this topic is that Harry doesn't know anything about the Grey Council, or who is on it, besides what he gets from Eb (and that he saw Odin at Chichén Itzá); if Eb is a bad-guy (or just trying to protect Harry by keeping him in the dark (where have we seen that before?)) it could be that Eb thought a nice fat non-existent conspiracy (with lots of meaningless coincidences to investigate) might be better than having Harry cast a wider net.

It doesn't actually seem like there's more than can be explained by (as you suggest above) "a demigod of Discord resident in Chicago" (it's also worth noting, though, that Greek Eris & Roman Discordia were female -- I'm sure Jim knows this! -- and wondering why Nameless isn't female ... ).  He can get outsized results -- and a variety of results -- by powering-up the low-level mortal casters, and by manipulating the bigger powers, etc... thus making it SEEM like there's some "Black Council" (or "Circle") at work... thus schismatizing the White Council.

Throwing some extra discord into Chicago, onto Dresden's shoulders, also thus isolates him from the White Council, and even from the Grey -- Discord for everyone!
 

[g33k]

What I'd like to know is how Kim managed to sell him on the idea that she was even remotely qualified to help him?

I expect MacFinn knew relatively-little about magic, beyond his family curse.  It's entirely possible Kim was capable of some magic that's flashy or showy, and could impress MacFinn.  Maybe she was a sensitive, and could see the curse, impress him that way.  Lots of ways, really.

... Good point, the circle isn't portable, and since it wasn't in a hundred year old building, who set it up to begin with and why?  And how did Finn learn about it?

MacFinn's circle just wasn't easily portable, "fold-it-up-and-slip-it-in-your-pocket" portable.

But remember, Marcone had an entire stone castle brought from the Old World to Chicago!

One big stone flagstone?  Yeah, that actually ships from Ireland to Chicago pretty easily...

###

I presume MacFinn (or an ancestor) got it made for them.
At a guess, it's work by a wizard of the White Council -- they seem to have a monopoly on Euro-wizarding.

It's always possible that it was acquired some other way, or from some other source.

I had been thinking that it was likely by a weaker wizard than Harry, since it's got all this gold & gems & other needless folderol.  Harry was going to whip up a replacement with chalk and some river stones!  But then I realized: Harry planned be there to cast the circle, and hold it.  It's likely that a circle made for a muggle to use would need all the fancy enhancements.

[Mira]

I expect MacFinn knew relatively-little about magic, beyond his family curse.  It's entirely possible Kim was capable of some magic that's flashy or showy, and could impress MacFinn.  Maybe she was a sensitive, and could see the curse, impress him that way.  Lots of ways, really.

Finn was no wizard, but he had put together elements of the circle to contain himself in the woods when Harry found him.  Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic..  I also doubt Kim was the first magical person Finn ever ran into.  He knew what kind of circle was needed to contain him, no, I think he knew a lot more than you think unless the curse was age sensitive, say he was free of it until he hit the age of 35 or something like that.  Which makes sense, one way to beat the curse is not to have children, many become fathers before the age of 40.

MacFinn's circle just wasn't easily portable, "fold-it-up-and-slip-it-in-your-pocket" portable.

No, then who built it there in the first place? Why? How did Finn know about it?

But remember, Marcone had an entire stone castle brought from the Old World to Chicago!

One big stone flagstone?  Yeah, that actually ships from Ireland to Chicago pretty easily...

That's a possible way, if that is what he did, he must have hauled it all over the world with him.

I had been thinking that it was likely by a weaker wizard than Harry, since it's got all this gold & gems & other needless folderol.  Harry was going to whip up a replacement with chalk and some river stones!  But then I realized: Harry planned be there to cast the circle, and hold it.  It's likely that a circle made for a muggle to use would need all the fancy enhancements.

Harry was going to try.. Materials are important,and maybe just just useless bling in this case.  Remember I think it was after Harry was made a Warden and had a regular paycheck, one of the first things he did was upgrade the circle in his basement to silver, I cannot remember what it was made of before, but I remember him saying that the silver made a stronger circle.

[g33k]

I don't read it that way.  They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.

They would have likely had the equivalent to a "suspect is considered armed and dangerous" warning but it is an arrest team, not an assassination squad ...

Yeah, but "considered armed and dangerous" is often enough to get the suspect killed.

I think they captured the Korean Kid because he was actually pretty weak.  Likely a "one-trick pony" and not much of a foe for seasoned wardens.  One of them could just walk up to him -- shields up, so they don't get brain-fried -- and knock him out (I bet Morgan's right cross would do the job; but they've got magic if needed).

They captured the Korean Kid because it was easy.

But -- at this point in the narrative, as of Fool Moon -- the Wardens are part of Harry's "threat assessment," he sees them as foes likely to kill.  So he's protecting Kim from that (expecting they will kill her).

... They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.

I suspect you're right...  But Harry didn't think so, at the time!

Harry expected that the kind of summoning-circle she was proposing would be taken as proof of guilt, and she'd be executed for it.

Later-Harry (a book or three after he dons the greycloak) would probably realize the Wardens would more likely rescue Kim, than kill her:  investigate, find out she was trying to contain a loup-garou, and either finish the circle for her, or kill MacFinn themselves.  And warn her never to mess around with those powers again!

[g33k]

Finn was no wizard, but he had put together elements of the circle to contain himself in the woods when Harry found him ...

Cite, please?  I don't think you are recalling correctly.
Harry said that he himself could do such a thing, not that MacFinn could (nor had).

...  Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic ...

Basic training is an issue -- a huge issue -- but maybe it is just down to Jim being careless.  It's 8-12 weeks, depending on the branch of service (that's 1 full moon if you are VERY lucky, but probably 2, and maybe even 3).

HOWEVER -- MacFinn was rich.  His family was in railroads.  He could probably arrange timing of Basic for just a single-full-moon cycle, and then ALSO fake-up a "family emergency" that would let him go home for a day or two.  This could be managed, with money.

But also (and IMHO the more-likely explanation):  the MacFinn curse only affects 1 family member at a time.  If the circle was imported by dad/grandpa/etc, maybe one of those elder generations was at home -- inside the intact circle! -- while young Harley was in Basic; then they died, when he was in 'Nam (and he used the curse to take revenge on the Viet Cong).

Then -- being the CEO of a shipping conglomerate -- he was probably eligible to go home and take over the family business.

... Harry was going to try ...

Harry expected to succeed.  Remember:  Harry grabbed chalk and 7 stones to go set the circle inside the police station.  He was betting other peoples' lives on his success.  He'd have been working on another plan, if he didn't expect to succeed!

[Ed0517]

Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch-

  It is the second book in the series, Jim could have changed his mind, but then again the circle has never been tested on page against the like.  Uriel did shrug his shoulders at the pitiful circle a wounded Harry made to try to contain him in Changes, but that wasn't the same kind of circle.

Or, maybe the WC had their heads up their butts. They do seem to have underestimated the Archive, certainly.  Harry told Luccio so.

It really wasn't a trial, it was more of a kangaroo court, that is what Harry objected to. That is what he insisted on for Molly, a real trial at the end of the book. 

they did have fact findings. It's not really a kangaroo court when the guilt is plainly proven.

  Harry hints that knowing how to build such a circle flirts with the dark arts.  It isn't just about having one of these circles in your back yard, but what you could call up with it. She wasn't a minor wizard, she wasn't even an apprentice, she had a little talent.  The speech Harry gave her about the circle, what it could contain, controlling such a thing sounded a lot like the one the Merlin gave him about young would be warlocks, the immense amount of danger, deaths, if they were allowed to live and something went wrong.. Which it did, and Kim and a lot of innocents died.

Actually, the Merlin treated Harry a lot less dismissively than Harry did Kim. Harry knew more of what could happen. Harry did not sit Kim down and say "What that is meant to hold is NASTY. You screw up any TINY detail about the circle, it gets free and dozens are probably going to die. You are putting a nitroglycerine factory between a school and an apartment building. "

   Why didn't she explain about Finn?  I think Harry would have gone with her and tried to help Finn.  Kim wanted Harry's knowledge, but she wanted to handle it herself, she wanted the credit.. In other words she was beginning down the road to the dark side, I believe the White Council would have seen it the same way.

Or it was simply pride. "I'm a big girl. I can do it myself" Acting like some teenager eager to be of age. She didn't want help due to her pride. Not evil. Just immature.

[Ed0517]

How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? ...

Hell itself has strong interest in having these sorts of summonings available to mortals -- and has the means to get them into mortals' hands!

You mean like some organization that basically got a "How to kill black court vampires" book published as Dracula? Wo were they?

[Ed0517]

kind of circle was needed to contain him, no, I think he knew a lot more than
No, then who built it there in the first place? Why? How did Finn know about it?That's a possible way, if that is what he did, he must have hauled it all over the world with him.

Hey, the Pope and the President of the US bring their cars with them. Why can't he bring a slab of stone? If you have the bucks.....

Harry was going to try.. Materials are important,and maybe just just useless bling in this case.  Remember I think it was after Harry was made a Warden and had a regular paycheck, one of the first things he did was upgrade the circle in his basement to silver, I cannot remember what it was made of before, but I remember him saying that the silver made a stronger circle.

 I think it was copper. I may be geeking, but did you know copper is the second best conductor of electricity amongst the elements? the only thing better.... is silver.  It may be the more power you have, the less material assistance you need.

Hypothetical example. It takes 100 wizard-volts to power a circle that will hold Chauncey. An aluminum circle loses half the power sent by the wizard to waste. Light, heat, whatever. Minor practitioner with 150 wizard-volts can't summon safely. Harry had 1000 wizard volts, even with the relatively cheap aluminum, he shoots out 250 WV to have a safe margin, the field is a 125 WV flux density, Chauncey is caged. 

Harry wants to summon the Erlking, who is likely going to be pissed. His field needs 750 WV. Harry would have to have 1500 WV minimum. He doesn't. But SILVER has a 10% voltage drop. So his circle, he can throw all 1000 WV and achieve a 900 WV field. Erlking has to sit and listen. Still makes sense to be very polite, apologetic, and make it worth his while.   

But note, with Harry's nice silver circle, minor practitioner would have been able to cage Chauncey. So materials do count.