Justin DuMorne

[Kvothe]

Does everyone really believe that Justin was killed by Harry?

I can’t believe that he would allow a 16 year old wizard in training to best him.

Thoughts ?

[g33k]

Does everyone really believe that Justin was killed by Harry?

I can’t believe that he would allow a 16 year old wizard in training to best him.

Thoughts ?

If Harry legitimately turned a Walker on him, all bets of relative power are off.

But no... "Justin survived" is a very popular fantheory.

[Tinfoil hat]

It part of the reason the WC fears him. A 16 year old beat and killed a full warden who survived kemmler. There is a Woj that justin is dead, dead and dead but jim could be telling the truth from a certain point of view

[Ed0517]

Also bear in mind... Justin could have believed he had Harry enthralled when Harry turned about and possibly freed the Walker who had a grudge against being summoned.  Like against Sells. HWWB easily had Justin outmatched

[Mira]

   Keep in mind, overconfidence can be a killer, for the reasons stated, Justin may have thought that
a sixteen year old kid wouldn't have a chance against him.  That leaves him open for a sucker punch, we all know that when Harry is in survival mode, he comes up with those quite often.  Also Harry is a star child, which means he isn't just any sixteen year old apprentice.

[g33k]

   Keep in mind, overconfidence can be a killer, for the reasons stated, Justin may have thought that
a sixteen year old kid wouldn't have a chance against him.  That leaves him open for a sucker punch, we all know that when Harry is in survival mode, he comes up with those quite often.  Also Harry is a star child, which means he isn't just any sixteen year old apprentice.

If Harry genuinely killed Justin, I suspect HWWB was involved.  Maybe just the act of fighting-off the outsider created some sort of backwash-effect that Justin hadn't been prepared for... I expect that 1% of an Outsider's power, even undirected, would have been crippling to any non-Starborn mortal wizard.

[Mira]

If Harry genuinely killed Justin, I suspect HWWB was involved.  Maybe just the act of fighting-off the outsider created some sort of backwash-effect that Justin hadn't been prepared for... I expect that 1% of an Outsider's power, even undirected, would have been crippling to any non-Starborn mortal wizard.

I don't think HWWB was involved, simply because of the gas station incident when Harry first encountered him and blew him up.   I also doubt that Harry even knew at that point in time how to summon an Outsider, and was totally freaked by his battle with HWWB.  Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed.  If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it.  Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.

[Snark Knight]

... Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed.  If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it.  Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.

I believe the WOJ was that *almost* all she gave him was confidence. So she didn't do something massive to actually make him much stronger than he was before bargaining with her, but there was something subtle ... perhaps something to help him resist enthrallment?

I don't think it had anything to do with turning the Walker back against Justin, though. I'm not even sure the Walker's involvement was anything so straightforward as Harry's interpretation that Justin sent it after him, and I'm even more doubtful it was still involved after getting its body blown up.

I also think there was more to the fight than Harry remembers. Elaine seems to say in SK that she got out while they were fighting and Justin was distracted - that doesn't sound like Harry won with a single hard fast suckerpunch.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Justin is alive and well in some part of the Multiverse.

[vincentric]

So for a WAG, Mirror Justin and Elaine are Cowl and Kumori? They fled here to escape Mirror Harry's search.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

No, Justin would also be dead in the Mirrorverse because he died before Grave Peril.

But one way to screw with Harry would be to bring a Justin from a universe where Justin never met Harry but went to the dark side. I am surprised Jim hasn’t done that yet, Harry could confirm via his Third Eye or Soulgaze it is Justin not an illusion or something. Imagine if something started throwing all of Harry’s early dead enemies at him in a wave Justin, Sells, Denton and the Hexenwolves, Kravos, Bianca etc. Perhaps something for the BAT?

Since initial speculation on Kumori’s identity we have had more story, Kumori means Shadow in Japanese and we now have Mouses brother MyShadow from Zoo Day

Besides Nameless is Cowl

[vincentric]

There is a WoJ that Cowl is someone that had been in the story before  so that can't be Nameless because he is brand new.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

We probably saw him in the crowd scene at Maeves Court in Summer Knight my guess the unnamed male dancer with strong hands (Harry was looking at his female partner) and Maeve says at one point “Not so untameable as he claimed” and Harry asks who and Maeve dismisses it. She could have been referring to Lloyd Slate who is later introduced in that scene, but maybe someone she doesn’t want to name. Lloyd had only just encountered a disguised Slare, Cowl had seen him and seen his plan ruined in Grave Peril by Harry’s refusal to comply with his part in it.

I would theorise that Nameless had long been part of Maeves Court, one of the things which led to the Redcap being assigned to her. Nameless was likely the brains behind the scheme to disrupt the Courts playing both Summer and Winter. If so when Maeves Court moved to Chicago it is likely he moved with them. It’s why he had the disguise in GP. On this basis Elaine was Nameless contact in Summer and was Kumori, at least until her obligation to Nameless was discharged. We see Kumori only in GP and DB so something happened in or just after DB which caused the discharge the following book Proven Guilty saw the attack on Arctis Tor and From The Law it was at this point Mab’s suspicion fell on Nameless leading to his exile.

[g33k]

I don't think HWWB was involved, simply because of the gas station incident when Harry first encountered him and blew him up.   I also doubt that Harry even knew at that point in time how to summon an Outsider, and was totally freaked by his battle with HWWB.  Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed.  If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it.  Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.

HWWB needn't have been *intentionally* involved.

Just the act of Harry unbinding the Outsider-summoning (Harry only could manage it because he was a Starborn, & it was an Outsider) might have had all sorts of nasty consequences for Justin...

If there was even a fraction of a second where HWWB's only-partially-bound power (as it is being dismissed back through the Outer Gates) might have backwashed onto Justin, he could still have been in very bad shape when Harry went back ...

Entirely hypothetical theorycrafting.  But WoJ is that Justin is dead-dead; and, as noted: a 16-year-old half trained wizard (even with Harry's native strength) is unlikely to have taken down:
 - a senior warden
 - with enough combat-chops to have been in on the final showdown with Kemmler
 - plus the added power-ups from Black Magic (well known to be a shortcut to extra power).
That kind of combat wizard just doesn't let their guard down enough for anyone to "sucker punch" them, no matter how confident they are that the foe isn't a threat.

So it's worth looking for some additional reason for Justin to be dead-dead.  HWWB is a good reason, right to hand.
 

[Mira]

Entirely hypothetical theorycrafting.  But WoJ is that Justin is dead-dead; and, as noted: a 16-year-old half trained wizard (even with Harry's native strength) is unlikely to have taken down:

  Oh I don't know, a sixteen year old very powerful half trained wizard can get lucky, just like he did with HWWB if he is scared enough.  Also we don't know what was going though Justin's mind at the time.  He may have pulled his punches a bit because he really didn't want to kill young Harry.  A dead kid wouldn't make a very good enforcer, also would call attention to what he was up to. When we first meet him, Harry admits to being lazy about learning his skills, Justin may have underestimated him...   As I said, all of the above leaves him vulnerable to a sucker punch, a huge KABOOM that only a frightened kid could pull off.