Author Topic: Justin DuMorne  (Read 8352 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2022, 02:59:37 PM »
That's why I think it is unreliable.  Thomas was a small child, so his understanding of what he remembers is unreliable.  Lord Raith isn't going to admit that he wasn't able to enthrall Margaret completely or at all.  Lara who might know and would tell Thomas has her own agenda so I wouldn't fully trust what she said either.  I do believe at some point this will all be revisited and hopefully Jim will have made up his mind by then as to how he wants that to resolve itself.

The thing is, people put together details after the fact; little kids don't STAY little.  There's family gossip, the "odd silence" on some topics (or some aspects of some topics), the "We Don't Talk About Bruno" (proceeds to talk about Bruno), etc.   There's also the stuff learned from outside sources... non-Raith whampires, non-whamp supernaturals, etc.  (I know people in RL who have learned things (as adults) about their parents, that they had lived through without noticing "what was really going on").

I presume virtually all the supernaturals include (at least some) learning-about and direct-experience-with their peer-groups.  We first meet Irwin in just such an environment.

It was never a secret that Thomas was the son of Margaret LeFay, and I'm quite sure Thomas had met (at least some) fae before he started hanging out with Harry; and they would likely have commented on his mother (much as many of the Fae have commented to Harry).  Other Supernaturals, too (such as Goodman Grey).

We don't know who Thomas may have spoken to, but I think it highly counter-intuitive to think Thomas would not have had experiences similar to what we know Harry had.

So -- in addition to his childhood memories -- Thomas will have a lot of other inputs to assemble a broader and more-nuanced view of his mother.

I suspect Thomas using the phrase "...there was some sort of business between them..." is both Watsonian-Thomas acknowledging that he didn't know the gist of the "business," and Doylist-Thomas cueing us that the "business" is an important matter still to be revealed.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 03:03:17 PM by g33k »

Offline Mira

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2022, 06:17:56 PM »
Quote
I suspect Thomas using the phrase "...there was some sort of business between them..." is both Watsonian-Thomas acknowledging that he didn't know the gist of the "business," and Doylist-Thomas cueing us that the "business" is an important matter still to be revealed.

I agree with that.  One point you didn't mention which I think is important, what Thomas wantsto believe about his mother.  The picture we get for the most part until she meets Malcolm and changes, that Margaret wasn't a very nice or good person.  Unless Chauncy was lying to Harry, they were getting ready to welcome Margaret to Hell, in short she was damned.  So Thomas might wantto believe that his mother was enthralled in some part by Lord Raith, thus she'd appear less evil in his eyes.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2022, 09:21:19 PM »
You'll only know if Butcher tells you.  Kids never really know their parents. They have this dream that is one part wish fulfillment with a sprinkle of wishful thinking. I suspect he'll mine this to produce some drama, assuming no more cat or dog issues and he takes a breather on romance.

Offline g33k

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2022, 05:20:22 AM »
...  One point you didn't mention which I think is important, what Thomas wantsto believe about his mother.  The picture we get for the most part until she meets Malcolm and changes, that Margaret wasn't a very nice or good person.  Unless Chauncy was lying to Harry, they were getting ready to welcome Margaret to Hell, in short she was damned...
Agreed; Thomas isn't a neutral unbiased observer, here.  He wants to think well of his mother.

Chauncy & Goodman Grey both agree she had become someone pretty bad.

But then she changed.  Given that Chauncy's testimony was that she recanted her evil ways, it looks like a black eye for Hell.  It's not a lie that benefits him or Hell, that I can see; so I suspect he was telling the truth (more or less) as a strategic move, trying to sucker Harry in (I am guessing that Grey had few (or no) interactions with "reformed" Margaret).

Rashid seems to have had a less-negative view of her.  Morgan too (in that he promised her he'd protect Harry).  Eb flatly says she's broken multiple WC laws;if the WC had held a trial, she'd presumably have been under a death-sentence.

Luccio's commentary is problematic:  she was under Peabody's sway, and trying to get closer to Harry, so she may have "softened" what she said, so as not to hurt/offend Harry.  Still, Luccio's opinion (like Rashid's & Morgan's) seems rather less harsh than Chauncy or Grey.

The faeries' commentary doesn't (IIRC) speak to Margaret LeFay's moral/ethical strengths or failings -- just that they found her to be relatively impressive (or in Erl's case, annoying (which is impressive in its own right!).

Do we have other relevant testimony/commentary/etc?

Offline Mira

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2022, 10:22:52 AM »

  I don't think so, and like any testimony, it is from a certain point of view.
Quote
The faeries' commentary doesn't (IIRC) speak to Margaret LeFay's moral/ethical strengths or failings -- just that they found her to be relatively impressive (or in Erl's case, annoying (which is impressive in its own right!).
I don't think what they have to say is relevant or rather should be taken with a grain of salt, simply because they don't make moral judgements. 
Quote
Luccio's commentary is problematic:  she was under Peabody's sway, and trying to get closer to Harry, so she may have "softened" what she said, so as not to hurt/offend Harry.  Still, Luccio's opinion (like Rashid's & Morgan's) seems rather less harsh than Chauncy or Grey.
We are talking the "human" element here which complicates things, a more emotional range of feelings coloring their judgement of her verses any that Chauncy or Grey may have of her.

Offline EBRIEN

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2022, 02:49:14 AM »


Chauncy & Goodman Grey both agree she had become someone pretty bad.

But then she changed.  Given that Chauncy's testimony was that she recanted her evil ways, it looks like a black eye for Hell.  It's not a lie that benefits him or Hell, that I can see; so I suspect he was telling the truth (more or less) as a strategic move, trying to sucker Harry in (I am guessing that Grey had few (or no) interactions with "reformed" Margaret).



I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?

B

Offline Mira

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2022, 10:44:26 AM »
I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?

B

Chauncy did, he said they were getting a place ready for her when things changed, she changed, and they didn't get her after all.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2022, 12:57:30 PM »
I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?

B
Quote from: Fool Moon
Chauncy regarded me without expression or emotion. “Many in the underworld were . . . familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end.”

“What do you mean? What are you talking about?”

Chauncy’s eyes gleamed with avarice. “Didn’t you know about your mother’s past, Mr. Dresden?
Quote
Grey’s eyes narrowed and changed back to mostly human brown again. He was silent for a moment, and then said, “You didn’t choose to be the son of Margaret LeFay. You didn’t choose the legacy she left you with her blood. And she was a piece of work, kid. I knew her.”

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Quote
Do we have other relevant testimony/commentary/etc?
You have quite a bit if you choose to run it down. You can eliminate Rashid from your calculations given his age, it may have been that he ran with her in the time before she was what she became. Goodman Grey seems to have known her after that point.

She was able to arrange a dinner whose known diners where a Red Court Nobel, the White Court King, the Blackstaff and herself. She could get them to set down and discuss some type of scheme. Unless this is a throw away this is where Harry as Starborn came in to the conversation.

When Grey comments, consider what he is saying when he makes the comparison between his father and Margaret.

Offline EBRIEN

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2022, 02:57:46 PM »
Thanks, Morris. It's funny...like many of you, I'm sure I've read and listened to the novels multiple times, but I think much gets mushed together over time.

I appreciate you taking the time to add some clarity with the quotes. Thanks!

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2022, 01:14:05 AM »
I have to point out, though, Chauncy could have been EXPECTING her to damned.... "She's on the way!" - as many have said about HARRY himself - plenty would have been willing to see the warlock chopped.... The Dark Prince couldn't quite set the hook.

...and "piece of work" does not mean damned. Maybe Grey thought she was a Grade A witch. Hated her. Does not damn here either. 

Heck, it does not mean she was NOT headed there. But there seems to be almost infinite forgiveness available for the truly penitent - didn't Michael even say if it was sincere, they would take NICODEMUS back? 

Offline Mira

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2022, 10:57:26 AM »
I have to point out, though, Chauncy could have been EXPECTING her to damned.... "She's on the way!" - as many have said about HARRY himself - plenty would have been willing to see the warlock chopped.... The Dark Prince couldn't quite set the hook.

...and "piece of work" does not mean damned. Maybe Grey thought she was a Grade A witch. Hated her. Does not damn here either. 

Heck, it does not mean she was NOT headed there. But there seems to be almost infinite forgiveness available for the truly penitent - didn't Michael even say if it was sincere, they would take NICODEMUS back?

But Nic isn't going to get forgiven unless he truly repents and changes his life.  Even if he does, that doesn't change who he was or what he did before hand.  Before she met Malcolm and apparently repented and changed her life around, Margaret was a piece of work and was headed for Hell and damnation.  Those who knew her before Malcolm will tell you that.  Michael might have faith that even Nic can repent and be forgiven for his sins, i.e. especially now that he has the Grail.  However until he does repent and is forgiven, Nic is what he is, and that isn't a very nice person.  That part of his life remains what it was, repented or not, forgiven or not.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2022, 01:18:49 AM »
But Nic isn't going to get forgiven unless he truly repents and changes his life.  Even if he does, that doesn't change who he was or what he did before hand.  Before she met Malcolm and apparently repented and changed her life around, Margaret was a piece of work and was headed for Hell and damnation.  Those who knew her before Malcolm will tell you that.  Michael might have faith that even Nic can repent and be forgiven for his sins, i.e. especially now that he has the Grail.  However until he does repent and is forgiven, Nic is what he is, and that isn't a very nice person.  That part of his life remains what it was, repented or not, forgiven or not.

Oh, no one EXPECTS Nic to repent and atone. But the path is open should he choose to take it. I am saying Margaret may have been HEADED that way before she changed her ways. But it doesn't say she was definitely damned yet. She might yet have been that kid that hangs out with the wrong sort. the kids with records, felonies, many have been in prison. You expect she is on that path.. but she hasn't done that felony YET. Only misdemeanors. Even the sanctimonious WC has not decreed she be executed. She may have still been dancing the tightrope.

Offline Mira

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2022, 10:53:26 AM »
Oh, no one EXPECTS Nic to repent and atone. But the path is open should he choose to take it. I am saying Margaret may have been HEADED that way before she changed her ways. But it doesn't say she was definitely damned yet. She might yet have been that kid that hangs out with the wrong sort. the kids with records, felonies, many have been in prison. You expect she is on that path.. but she hasn't done that felony YET. Only misdemeanors. Even the sanctimonious WC has not decreed she be executed. She may have still been dancing the tightrope.

From what Luccio said, and even Grey she did more than just hang out with the wrong crowd, she broke several of the Laws.  I do believe there was an execution order out on her.  Being described as a "piece of work," in this context isn't a title that one earns for misdemeanors.. Chauncy said, "her coming," that sounds like a pretty sure thing. No one expected her to repent or atone either, but upon falling in love with Malcolm, she did.  But all the forgiveness, repentance, or atonement in the world can't change what went on before.  Her past is her past and those who only knew her then, know her by that past.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 06:41:41 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2022, 02:08:13 PM »
From what Luccio said, and even Grey she did more than just hang out with the wrong crowd, she broke several of the Laws...

I don't think Luccio said that; I think it was Eb himself.

Luccio was far kinder than that, speaking to Harry... OTOH, Luccio at the time was being mentally-influenced by Peabody, to get closer to Harry.  Dumping on his mom was probably not her go-to strategy.

...  I do believe there was an execution order out on her ...

I don't think there was; but I don't recall any definitive statement (either way) in the books, or in any WoJ.
 
Specifically, I suspect that (despite Eb's confident statement of Law-breaking) I don't think the larger Warden/WC knew of that, or had held the trial necessary to order an execution (and I WAG it as very-possible that someone deceived Ebenezer into thinking his daughter was a murderer &c (just as he feared she was):  it would be a masterful manipulation-tactic to use against the Blackstaff).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 02:13:38 PM by g33k »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Justin DuMorne
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2022, 03:38:51 PM »
Quote from: Blood Rites
"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had… unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."

"I was told she died in childbirth," I said.

"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."