Ebenezars journal

[Snark Knight]

  Well, he has if you go by how he has used the term so far in the series, Jim has told us exactly what it means and how he wants to use the term.  Mantle, with the exception of how Eb used in reference to the Warden of the Island, is the "Fae power" for lack of a better term that pertains to the Queen vessels, Lady vessels, and Knight vessels of both Courts, when on vessel dies it moves and occupies the nearest suitable vessel.

WOJ's seem to indicate the Blackstaff would also choose a new bearer in the event of the previous holder's death - although they also get more of a choice whether to take it up than we've seen with the Lady mantles.

I tend to find the fact that it's OK for the Warden position not to be filled for an extended period suggestive of it not being a real mantle. With the Fae mantles, even when it returns to the nearest Queen on the death of a previous knight, there's strong pressure on her to bestow it on another mortal asap. If the Wardenship is parked with Alfred, he doesn't seem to feel any corresponding hurry to replace Wardens.

On the other hand, holding the Wardenship has changed Harry - the partial intellectus and the changes in his shield and staff colours. There's something to it. Perhaps Merlin (with Alfred's help?) made some sort of construct in imitation of the faerie mantles even though it isn't quite the same thing.

[morriswalters]

First for the upstream comments about Harry's fire spell. Whatever it is, it isn't fire per se.  Fire is a chemical reaction. What he actually describes is heat.  If you want to throw fire you actually throw something that is burning.

[Ed0517]

The key seems to have been be weaker than Mab to stay in the mortal world. Being immortal is just an added bonus of great power. Sort of if u reach a certain level of magic power. Boom u are immortal. Strength of a river is young to his kin yet 1000s old. I think the more magic you have the less mortal u are. Wizards seem tk grow more powerful in magic as they age and they reach 300s. Irvine was young but as strong as harry. He doesn't get sick etc. May is ur really strong u get immortality has a side effect

Are we that sure Vadderung is weaker than Mab? He has a lower rank in Winter, yes, but it also seems it is a part time gig.

Irwin is strong because he is only half human. He gets his size and strength from his Bigfoot heritage. We have no reason to think bigfoots immortal. Possibly just long lived. There are trees thousands of years old.

[Con]

Bigfoot is middle aged according to himself.

"Figure I'm about middle age"
Which presumably made him approximately the same age as the tale of Beowulf. That made him better than a thousand years old. Minimum.

Page 209 Peace Talks

Found this WOJ recently.

Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?

Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. laughs

Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?

Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.

Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...

[Mira]

k, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

  So, is Jim saying he knows who is Warden now, Harry, understood, but now he seems to be talking double speak, and the guy before that was.. Then he goes on to say but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...  So is he implying that there was another Warden in-between Harry and Kemmler? If that is what he is implying, why isn't he or she named and what happened to him or her?

[Con]

So, is Jim saying he knows who is Warden now, Harry, understood, but now he seems to be talking double speak, and the guy before that was.. Then he goes on to say but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...  So is he implying that there was another Warden in-between Harry and Kemmler? If that is what he is implying, why isn't he or she named and what happened to him or her?

Not including Harry.

So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.

[Tinfoil hat]

Are we that sure Vadderung is weaker than Mab? He has a lower rank in Winter, yes, but it also seems it is a part time gig.

Irwin is strong because he is only half human. He gets his size and strength from his Bigfoot heritage. We have no reason to think bigfoots immortal. Possibly just long lived. There are trees thousands of years old.

I'm not saying they are immortal. Im using them as a example of what increased magical power gets you. Like wizards have a lot of power they live longer than weaker talents. Bigfoots have more as such live longer.

On the Odin thing. Odin passed on woj, and the fact he is a vassal of winter. The fight would be epic and probably a coin toss.
Also in Skin game he says Mab stays to keep Badassiel from listening in

[Con]

Yeah Vadderung can tell Mab to get in line.

Kringle owes some loyalty to her, but by his own admission.

'Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those whom one does not get along famously well. it can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

Skin Game page 372

So Vadderung and Mab could duel if necessary, but the Kringle game keeps the respect level between them. Also Vadderung could fight Ferrovax if necessary so he's in the same league. Vadderung was the only one able to resist Ethniu when she barged into the party as well.

[Mira]

Not including Harry.

So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.

So the question remains, what happened to the other two?  My tin foil hat guess,  ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it.  Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens.  Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders..

[Ed0517]

Not including Harry.

So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.

I think he is saying it is Kemmler, unknown warden, Harry. And he is not saying so we likely know who it was. First guess is Justin. Possibly even Eb pre-Blackstaff. Do we know when Kemmler was Warden? He may have been stripped long before his last death.

[Tinfoil hat]

So the question remains, what happened to the other two?  My tin foil hat guess,  ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it.  Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens.  Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders..

My theory in another thread is that the island corrupts the warden if a weak minded person gets it. Hence harry being prepared to resist the island

[Ed0517]

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.

Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...

Mantles don't make you immortal or bring you back. See Aurora,  Maeve, Lily, and Ron Reuel. Some of the necromancers can at least temporarily bring you back, like Kumori. And she does not appear to be Cowl's equal.

[vincentric]

Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...

Mantles don't make you immortal or bring you back. See Aurora,  Maeve, Lily, and Ron Reuel. Some of the necromancers can at least temporarily bring you back, like Kumori. And she does not appear to be Cowl's equal.

While the Knight mantles don't make the holder immortal, Aurora, Lily and Maeve would have all come back if they hadn't been killed at a special place or time for immortal vulnerability or subjected to near reality shattering power such as Ethniu wielding the Eye. It would just take time to heal. Molly tells Harry she could come back from going through a woodchipper and we see Mab go through several stages of healing in PT and BG.

[g33k]

First for the upstream comments about Harry's fire spell. Whatever it is, it isn't fire per se.  Fire is a chemical reaction. What he actually describes is heat.  If you want to throw fire you actually throw something that is burning.

<shrugs>
Harry calls it "fire."
Jim Butcher calls it "fire."

Looks to me like you're "right," technically speaking... but there may be something else going on, given both in-world and WoJ testimony.

Hell, it's magic -- maybe Harry's magic is momentarily making nitrogen flammable???

[g33k]

So the question remains, what happened to the other two?  My tin foil hat guess,  ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it.  Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens.  Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders..

Jim has indicated the job is pretty inherently dangerous.

Prior wardens could have died trying to capture various BigBads.

They may have died because a succesfully-captured BigBad had cults of followers and/or Lieutenant-MediumBads whom the Warden didn't adequately prepare for.

There's plenty of *other* Supernatural forces in the world, not just the WC, who might have taken exception to something the Warden did, or was expected to do.  From what we have seen I expect the Archive could have taken out a Warden... and likely at least some of the other individual signatories.