Ebenezars journal

[Con]

Ebenezars journal.

"...seems clear that he had no idea of the islands original purpose. I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate - or atleast a higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favour despite everything we in our ignorance do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once. I think he's a damned fool.
Rashid says that warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of people but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boys got a solid head on his shoulders generally. And of all the wizards I know he's among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle
 I trust his judgement.
But then again I trusted Maggie's too."

So The Merlin's a dick but I can understand his fear.

Ebenezar thinks fatw may have given Harry the island but also he thinks he could be another Maggie.

Rashids doing his usual let events unfold.

But the points I want to home in on.

1. Whose the other 2 or 3 wizards eb would trust?
2. Ebenezar specifically says 'mantle'

Confirmation Demon Reach is a MANTLE!

[g33k]

Ebenezars journal.

"...seems clear that he had no idea of the islands original purpose. I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate - or atleast a higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favour despite everything we in our ignorance do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once. I think he's a damned fool.
Rashid says that warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of people but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boys got a solid head on his shoulders generally. And of all the wizards I know he's among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle
 I trust his judgement.
But then again I trusted Maggie's too."

So The Merlin's a dick but I can understand his fear.

Ebenezar thinks fatw may have given Harry the island but also he thinks he could be another Maggie.

Rashids doing his usual let events unfold.

But the points I want to home in on.

1. Whose the other 2 or 3 wizards eb would trust?
2. Ebenezar specifically says 'mantle'

Confirmation Demon Reach is a MANTLE!

Maybe he was using "mantle" in a colloquial sense, but that seems unlikely.
I think it's "Warden" that's a mantle, specifically "The Warden" (of the Island & of the Well beneath).

And I think The Warden is the (only legitimate) leader of all the White Council Wardens.

The Senior Council is gonna lose their collective shit when they realize that Harry Dresden is "legally" -- and magically! -- entitled and empowered to give the Wardens orders; orders that supersede any others.

I think the OG Merlin set things up that way, and generations since have forgotten what The Warden could do, and what all the little Wardens were really about; and it's more than just politics & bureaucracy enforcing that, I think there are Warden-specific oaths & rituals enforcing the structure.

Because really:  The Warden needs some staff to be able to patrol & investigate the whole F'ing world, it's too sprawling a job for any single person with a single timeline/lifetime.

[morriswalters]

Butcher has never explicitly stated what a Mantle is. So a Mantle is whatever we think it is. Such is the beauty of fiction.  And what Eb thinks about it matters not at all. He doesn't choose the holder. And after Peace Talks his judgement is questionable. What matters is doing that silly challenge and hoping that Alfred doesn't throw you in the drunk tank on level 3 for imitating a drunk. Which is a cute way of saying that Alfred is looking for something only he can see.

[Mira]

 In my opinion, Warden of the Island can be considered a mantle.  Why? Because with Alfred's cooperation Harry can jail Titians, and a real gain of power derived from the island as long as he is on it, it isn't just a title.

I also think that normal White Court Wardens when Luccio was still able to custom make a sword for each also gain a power of sorts but not enough to be considered a mantle.

[g33k]

Butcher has never explicitly stated what a Mantle is. So a Mantle is whatever we think it is. Such is the beauty of fiction ...

It's pretty clear, though:  a "mantle" is a semi-sentient magical suite of powers, motivations/drives, and restrictions.  This may not be exactly right, but it's a reasonable approximation.  (n.b. there's also the DF RPG; Jim was involved in that, so the "Mantle" there is probably a good game-rule approximation of the novels' use of "Mantle," too)

...  And what Eb thinks about it matters not at all. He doesn't choose the holder ...

Ebenezer, as one of the most-senior WC wizards, is an authority on magic.  If he calls such-and-such a thing a "mantle," then it probably is (except for the vanishingly-small chance that a technical expert like Eb would use a technical "term of art" in a sloppy fashion when writing for future generations).

And while he doesn't get to choose a new Warden, the Blackstaff could probably manage -- eventually -- to kill most any Warden that he disapproved-of strongly-enough (I imagine there's a fair bit of gray-zone between the "three or four [Eb would] be willing to see take up that particular mantle" and those he'd see as automatically needing removal-with-prejudice.

So it's not utterly irrelevant who Eb thinks should be the Warden of the well on the island...
 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s mantle in the colloquial sentence alright, it isn’t capitalised, besides look at how Mab describes it to Lara in Peace Talks

“New colors,” she said, her voice velvety smooth and calm. “The shield used to be blue. What changed?” “He made an alliance with a powerful guardian entity,”

NOT A MANTLE

Harry ‘married’ Demonreach, or basically the equivalent, an exchange of obligations binding unto Harry’s death. Demonreach is a naturally occurring phenomena, a genius loci not a construct like the Mantles. He has been repurposed as a jailer, but that is merely an extension of his insular nature. Note even Mab describes Demonreach as powerful.

[g33k]

It’s mantle in the colloquial sentence alright, it isn’t capitalised, besides look at how Mab describes it to Lara in Peace Talks

“New colors,” she said, her voice velvety smooth and calm. “The shield used to be blue. What changed?” “He made an alliance with a powerful guardian entity,”

NOT A MANTLE

Harry ‘married’ Demonreach, or basically the equivalent, an exchange of obligations binding unto Harry’s death. Demonreach is a naturally occurring phenomena, a genius loci not a construct like the Mantles. He has been repurposed as a jailer, but that is merely an extension of his insular nature. Note even Mab describes Demonreach as powerful.

I find cap-or-not an unconvincing argument, honestly.  I don't think Harry/Jim is consistent here.  And there are a *lot* of other words (more common/conventional words than "mantle") Eb could have used in that passage... responsibility, obligation, role, etc.

Eb's book on magic is one of the WC's most foundational texts; clarity & precision in writing comes naturally to him.  I don't think he would have written for posterity (Harry, and any putative great-grands) and used such an ambiguous term.  It'd be like an actual astrophysicist making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs (took the fandom decades to retcon that one!!!)

I think binding control of "Alfred" (within the scope of what the spirit is) is part of the role of Warden.
But although the spirit itself isn't a Mantle, I see nothing convincing to me that there isn't a "Wardenmantle," and some reasonably-good arguments that there is a mantle.

I don't think the case is ironclad, but it's relatively convincing.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

At best the argument is tinfoil clad. Mab can only tell the truth, she has to be a reliable narrator in describing the Harry/Demonreach relationship.

People look for Mantles everywhere, but they mistake titles and other sorts of associations and relationships for them.

It’s also common word. Harry’s old fireplace had a mantle (and when he put his gun on it, it became a mantlepiece) his dusters have a mantle (when it fell to bits it became mantle pieces). It’s a word Jim likes and tends to slightly overuse in multiple contexts. He does the same with other words and phrases.

But the thing is Jim has probably noticed us noticing this, and therefore is trolling us with its further use, he could have use “burden” in the Journal but “mantle” was more fun for him. It appears to be working. His inner troll must rubs its hands with glee every time a Q&A brings up a Mantle question allowing him to prolong the agony, with a snarky answer.

[Ed0517]

I think mantle here is mantle of leadership - like the captain of a sports team. The other mantles (Knight, Lady, Queen, etc.) are not human-created or powered. Possibly Blackstaff might be a mantle - but the power is in the Staff, which does not seem human created. Demonreach seems human created (assuming Merlin is human, I think he is supposedly a scion of sorts)

[Mira]

I think mantle here is mantle of leadership - like the captain of a sports team. The other mantles (Knight, Lady, Queen, etc.) are not human-created or powered. Possibly Blackstaff might be a mantle - but the power is in the Staff, which does not seem human created. Demonreach seems human created (assuming Merlin is human, I think he is supposedly a scion of sorts)

It doesn't matter that the island was human created, it was magically created over a powerful ley line.  The Warden of that island can draw from that power, he or she has power over it's inhabitants.  Remember Mab telling Harry that he now could order Ethniu to fight for him because she was his prisoner now on Demonreach in Battle Ground?  It may be limited to him being physically on the island, but maybe not, that's perhaps why the Council kept that post unfilled all these years?  It is power that could be easily abused.  Also remember Rashid's warnings to Harry about drawing power from that ley line back in Turn Coat?  It could be that that is where Kemmler got the power needed to do what he did?

[g33k]

... It’s also common word. Harry’s old fireplace had a mantle (and when he put his gun on it, it became a mantlepiece) his dusters have a mantle ...

Yes yes, and raptors "mantle" over their prey.
I know.

But these are distinctly other uses of the word.  As a part of a fireplace, "mantle" is pretty common, you're right.

However, the use of "mantle" to describe a role, a responsibility, a burden... that is a much less common usage!  And it's not merely "ambiguous" for Eb to use it that way, it's actually misleading:  that specific "layman" usage is the one from which the magical usage derives.

It's particularly misleading coming from the pen of Ebenezer McCoy (for whom written & spoken ambiguity would only, I think, be intentional).

...  But the thing is Jim has probably noticed us noticing this ... His inner troll must rubs its hands with glee every time a Q&A brings up a Mantle question allowing him to prolong the agony, with a snarky answer.

This is undeniable; and honestly this meta-analysis is one I find FAR more compelling than the in-world argument.

I still think the text itself strongly implies that there's a "Warden-Mantle," but I completely see the argument that Jim might have written it that way to intentionally throw a red-herring in the fans' path...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Um mantle was in far more common usage  a couple of hundred years ago certainly in the UK.

Ebeneezer is Scottish and born several centuries ago. Jim is trying to give Ebeneezer dialogue consistent with his origin, including more archaic usage. Could you imagine Eb calling anyone “dude”? It is consistent with Eb’s ‘voice’ and baits a trap for the unwary.

[morriswalters]

Given this back and forth can anyone argue that Butcher  has defined the term?  I think not.   And why should he? The more narrowly he defines it the less useful it becomes a story device.

[Mira]

Given this back and forth can anyone argue that Butcher  has defined the term?  I think not.   And why should he? The more narrowly he defines it the less useful it becomes a story device.

  Well, he has if you go by how he has used the term so far in the series, Jim has told us exactly what it means and how he wants to use the term.  Mantle, with the exception of how Eb used in reference to the Warden of the Island, is the "Fae power" for lack of a better term that pertains to the Queen vessels, Lady vessels, and Knight vessels of both Courts, when on vessel dies it moves and occupies the nearest suitable vessel.  It is physical, it enhances power, adds power, and is more or less controlled by the vessel.  The Queens and Ladies seem to have more control over their mantles than the Knights do, but that might be because of lack of a suitable vessel.  There is no physical take over when Harry became Warden, however having said that, his power has greatly increased by acquiring the job, so in that way though not exact I think it could indeed be considered a mantle.  I think the main difference is the Fae Mantles seem to have a mind of their own and the vessel has to be strong to control it, where as there is no physical take over in the case of the Warden mantle, and so far at any rate Harry has had no problem controlling it, unlike his problems with the Winter Knight mantle.

[vincentric]

I think the main difference is where a particular mantle stands on the power scale, what created it and more specifically if it grants immortality. There are capital M and small m mantles.

Mother, Lady or perhaps even Kringle grant immortality. They have much greater restraints on their holders freedom of action. Warden and Winter Knight are either created by or meant to be held by mortals. Winter Knight is more powerful than Warden(It works everywhere) but it does constrain Harry to obey Winter Law to maintain access.