Jim interview

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Someone needs to do a bit of research on Greek mythology:

In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tártaros) is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias ( c.

Tartarus - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tartarus

Tartarus does double duty as an underworld for mortals and the prison ofthe Greek Titans and other monsters. This is true of most mythological/religious hells. The monsters/demons are sent there and later the wicked souls of humanity are banished there. Mab's little ice garden is her personal prison but it isn't even as good a prison as Demonreach, otherwise it would have a much larger population.

And that’s the problem, Demonreach doesn’t do such double duty, it’s purely a prison for the Monsters and Demons, not a “bad place” for humanity. See I did do exactly the same research, but didn’t overlook its dual nature.

[Con]

I think the point was Tartarus was a prison for Titans, Elder Gods, Demons and Monsters. Just like Demonreach is.

Interestingly there's a similar concept in Paranet Papers. Vegas has trapped an Elder God Being thats trapped by another Being who feeds off of sin. Basically any time in history a city has been known as a den of inequity Babylon, Rome etc it feeds and strengthens a bad god whose purpose is to keep an even worst destroyer from escaping.

There's also a section where The Lords of Outer Night became Gods themselves by imprisoning and feeding off of other gods. Thomas tries to erase it from the book unsuccesfully as a Venatore.

Anyway point is imprisoning powerful beings is common recurring motif in myth and in Dresden Files. I assume Cerberus is a Guardian in his own right whose duty it is to well be a Warden/Guard who imprisons and catches escapee's.

[vincentric]

And that’s the problem, Demonreach doesn’t do such double duty, it’s purely a prison for the Monsters and Demons, not a “bad place” for humanity. See I did do exactly the same research, but didn’t overlook its dual nature.

Being a mortal underworld does not disqualify Tartarus from being a prison for Titans and monsters. That was it's original use. Christian Hell had Lucifer and the fallen angels imprisoned before the first mortals walked the earth. Traditionally, most other pantheons imprisoned their evil deities and monsters in wars fought before the dawn of man. The wicked souls got sent there to suffer afterwards. Why wouldn't those places still be prisons? The only stories we have of escapes(excepting modern horror movies) are by gods and heroes who were living when they entered or who were called to a higher purpose after death.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Potentially it does disqualify it, if any hint of collusion could result in hades Vault in Marcone’s Bank from not backing onto the Vault in Hades Realm then having the same space used for a different purpose would do the same thing, especially if there is another candidate which doesn’t have that dual purpose.

There is also the point that both the Gatekeeper and the Winter Lady used the Never Never route to Demonreach. Neither has any known association with Hades or Tartarus, both have associations with Mab and Arctis Tor. Mab will leak information to find out those she cannot trust and wait for them to prove her right, she did this with Nameless, perhaps she did the same with Maeve and the back door to Demonreach, indeed the attack may have been an attempt to verify the information by Maeves allies as much as release Lea. It was shut to her after this, suggesting Mab’s game.

People might want Demonreach to back onto Tartarus, bur there is no evidence for this, but there is circumstantial evidence for Mab’s Ice Garden, by those who have used the route to get there.

[Lehane]

The Gatekeeper never actually went onto Demonreach during the series. He very specifically never set foot on it cause Alfred held a grudge against him. He went somewhere close by the Island but still on the lake.

There was also the path that Peabody used to get near Demonreach in Turncoat that was an alley or something in Chicago that Mouse and the P.I. Kid staked out.

[g33k]

In the interview{15:15}, the question was "Was there a clue to who the big bad of the series is in Storm Front?" 
Answer " I suppose the sleeper was, there's so many villans, but he's so big he was more of an environment."

Who is the sleeper?  is it he who walks beside?

I don't remember anything being mentioned as the sleeper.

Jim says he's "more of an environment" but I don't think any Outsider is that ubiquitous/pervasive within Creation.

I think Jim was name-dropping a being who hasn't ever had any real "screen time" or focus within the stories.

[Dina]

I have not listened to the inteview, but that quote is indeed weird and sounds as if you are right, g33k.

[vincentric]

Potentially it does disqualify it, if any hint of collusion could result in hades Vault in Marcone’s Bank from not backing onto the Vault in Hades Realm then having the same space used for a different purpose would do the same thing, especially if there is another candidate which doesn’t have that dual purpose.

There is also the point that both the Gatekeeper and the Winter Lady used the Never Never route to Demonreach. Neither has any known association with Hades or Tartarus, both have associations with Mab and Arctis Tor. Mab will leak information to find out those she cannot trust and wait for them to prove her right, she did this with Nameless, perhaps she did the same with Maeve and the back door to Demonreach, indeed the attack may have been an attempt to verify the information by Maeves allies as much as release Lea. It was shut to her after this, suggesting Mab’s game.

People might want Demonreach to back onto Tartarus, bur there is no evidence for this, but there is circumstantial evidence for Mab’s Ice Garden, by those who have used the route to get there.

So what hordes of world threating monsters and demons are imprisoned in Mab's garden? The only actual time it appears in the books, it's being used to hold Lea to cure her. We know that she punishes people there but it's mostly her vassals that displease her(most recently Nameless, Laplander and Harry in The Law). I don't think anything she has would be more than a Nagloshi. Demonreach holds fallen Gods. It's Never Never analog is someplace with equivalent or greater prisoners in equa numbers. That doesn't have to be Tartarus but it should be in that league and Mab's place just isn't.

And once again this theory hangs on that direct Way from Arctic Tor that's never been even inferred by the books. Yes, Peabody met someone in Chicago, a known nexus of Ways, but where is it stated that it was Maeve and that they came from Arctis Tor? If an already Nemfected Maeve had known a Way to the island, she could have loosed the sleepers before Harry ever became Warden or Winter Knight. Rashiid says he knows a Way but we have no way to know where he started from. A spot that approaches the Outer Gates would seem to be a better choice. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

And once again I point to circumstantial evidence over no evidence.

The point is ‘PRISON’ and ‘prison’ on the logic being put forward the vault in the bank has to have riches equivalent to that of Hades VAULT, it clearly doesn’t,  similar function but different degree are enough to forge the link. Mab’s Ice Garden merely needs to serve the same function as Demonreach it doesn’t have to function to the same degree.

Indeed given the links between Mab and Merlin shown in Peace Talks it may likely have been designed that way, a secure back door to the NeverNever guarded by Mab. Again there are no known links to Merlin and Hades, but there are between the Merlin and Mab.

[morriswalters]

The island is not the prison. The prison is under the island.

Mab made a low, disgusted sound and turned to face me. “I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?” “Yes,” I said. “Yes, you do.” Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 501). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Doesn't seem like someone who has the keys to the kingdom.

[vincentric]

The congruent spot in reality is supposedly the lesser of the sites though. Marcone's vault is a starter set to Hades'. The only place comparably greater than Demonreach that Mab is associated with is the Outer Gates themselves.

There is no circumstantial evidence of a direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach. We don't know who was with Peabody on Demonreach but it most likely wasn't a Nemfected Maeve. Otherwise what was the point of flying onto the island when she could have just taken her entourage and the ritual materials directly there. Or sending in an inside man to be the Warden before Harry assumes the post. Or going and blowing the place during the time betweenTurn Coat and Cold Days.

[Dina]

The island is not the prison. The prison is under the island.Doesn't seem like someone who has the keys to the kingdom.

I always wondered about the etiquette in the supernatural world. How would you tell someone like Mab "Yes, you have my permission to enter my domain THIS TIME" without being rude? Or is it assumed that a permission is not absolute, but only for the moment, unless otherwise specified? Because that scene always worried me a little.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The congruent spot in reality is supposedly the lesser of the sites though. Marcone's vault is a starter set to Hades'. The only place comparably greater than Demonreach that Mab is associated with is the Outer Gates themselves.

There is no circumstantial evidence of a direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach. We don't know who was with Peabody on Demonreach but it most likely wasn't a Nemfected Maeve. Otherwise what was the point of flying onto the island when she could have just taken her entourage and the ritual materials directly there. Or sending in an inside man to be the Warden before Harry assumes the post. Or going and blowing the place during the time betweenTurn Coat and Cold Days.

It has been confirmed as Maeve, she placed the Ice Spiders on the way to Edinburgh and then brought them to the island with her and Peabody.

Using it once confirmed Mab’s distrust and that door was thereafter slammed shut in Maeves face, exactly what she did with Nameless. Maeve had to mislead her companions to get them to the island, if they were enjoined by Winter Law NOT to use that particular way she had to get creative, or if doing so would alert Mab.

Mab guards the back door, she doesn’t use it (1) because during Cold Days she and Harry are at loggerheads and she knows Harry on the island has the power to win any debate, (2) it’s telling Harry something he doesn’t know, for nothing, not Mab’s thing, he has to earn knowledge in her book.

Arguing that the prison is separate to the island defeats the starting point that it backs onto Tartarus, on that basis the island would instead back onto an island in the NeverNever like Avalon. The entire island is Demonreach and the prison is part of it - no distinction has been made in the text, nor in any WOJ.

[vincentric]

Where was it confirmed as Maeve? And where does it say they came from Arctis Tor? It's definitely not in the books and I've seen no WoJ on the matter.

Why would Nemesis(Maeve) waste it's supposedly one free shot at the Way to Demonreach on a minor side scheme when it could do a full jailbreak? Just bring an allied warlock to Demonreach before TC. Have him/her become Warden and let school out while Mab has no active Knight and no Lady to help her.

[morriswalters]

I always wondered about the etiquette in the supernatural world. How would you tell someone like Mab "Yes, you have my permission to enter my domain THIS TIME" without being rude? Or is it assumed that a permission is not absolute, but only for the moment, unless otherwise specified? Because that scene always worried me a little.

Butcher has been remarkably consistent on this point. You invoke a guest right.  That means you knock on the door before you enter or come in with guns blazing.

It has been confirmed as Maeve, she placed the Ice Spiders on the way to Edinburgh and then brought them to the island with her and Peabody.

Using it once confirmed Mab’s distrust and that door was thereafter slammed shut in Maeves face, exactly what she did with Nameless. Maeve had to mislead her companions to get them to the island, if they were enjoined by Winter Law NOT to use that particular way she had to get creative, or if doing so would alert Mab.

Mab guards the back door, she doesn’t use it (1) because during Cold Days she and Harry are at loggerheads and she knows Harry on the island has the power to win any debate, (2) it’s telling Harry something he doesn’t know, for nothing, not Mab’s thing, he has to earn knowledge in her book.

Arguing that the prison is separate to the island defeats the starting point that it backs onto Tartarus, on that basis the island would instead back onto an island in the NeverNever like Avalon. The entire island is Demonreach and the prison is part of it - no distinction has been made in the text, nor in any WOJ.

By the time of Turn Coat Maeve has been outed as nemfected. Assuming that she ever had keys that would pretty much have ended that.  Unless Mab is an idiot. In any case Maeve is as good as a candidate as anyone else for Peabody's partner.  But it doesn't follow that Maeve came from Arctis Tor.

Butcher himself makes the distinction that the prison is separate from the island.  You enter the Well through the door at the bottom of the stairs.