What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?

[vincentric]

Perhaps the Fae are different but among the people I know, you're a godparent forever.

And Harry hasn't reached 50 yet. To Mab and Lea he's still a child. They even refer to him as "child" in most of their conversations.

But if you won't take direct quote's into account, then I guess your opinion is set in stone.

[morriswalters]

I hope I don't get moderated for too long a quote, but here goes.

“Indeed, child,” she said. “Did you not think it strange that in your turmoil-strewn time here none of your foes—not one—ever sought to enter from the other side? Never sent a spirit given form directly into your bed, your shower, your refrigerator? Never poured a basket of asps into your closet so that they sought refuge in your shoes, your boots, the pockets of your clothing?” She shook her head. “Sweet, sweet child. Had you walked much farther, you would have seen the mound of bones of all the things that have attempted to reach you, and which I have destroyed.”

“Yeah, well. I nearly wound up there myself.”

“La,” she said, smiling. “My guardians were created to attack any intruder—including one that looked like you. We couldn’t have some clever shapeshifter slipping by, now, could we?” She sighed. “You took a terrible toll on my primroses. Honestly, child, there are elements other than fire, you know. You really ought to diversify. Now I have two gaping maws to feed instead of one.”

“I’ll . . . be more careful next time,” I said.

“I should appreciate such a thing.” She studied me quietly. “It has been true for your entire lifetime, child. I have followed you in the spirit world. Created guardians and defenses ’pon the other side to ward your sleep, to stand sentinel over your home. And you still have only the beginnings of an idea of how many have tried.” She smiled, showing her delicately pointed canine teeth again. “Tried, and failed.”

Which also explained how she was always near at hand whenever I had entered the Nevernever. How she would be upon my trail in seconds whenever I went in.

Because she had been there, protecting me.

[Mira]

I hope I don't get moderated for too long a quote, but here goes.

  I hope not, the whole quote is needed..

Lea had no general obligation to protect Harry except to Margaret when Harry was a child (and god did she suck at that) she owed no obligation to protect adult Harry, she was if anything his stalker, trying to bind him to her.

Harry remains her godchild whether six or sixty years of age.. Think about it, Lea is immortal, so Harry's age has no meaning for her, heck, she still calls him, "child."  I also doubt that Margaret told her to protect Harry only for his first 18 years...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Perhaps the Fae are different but among the people I know, you're a godparent forever.

And Harry hasn't reached 50 yet. To Mab and Lea he's still a child. They even refer to him as "child" in most of their conversations.

But if you won't take direct quote's into account, then I guess your opinion is set in stone.

I am taking the quote, just not the parts which are being implied into it without any provenance. Treating something as a fact when it is nothing more than a theory still does not make it a fact. I am not called Conspiracy Factualist.

As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker, she moved in next door to keep a better eye on Harry, and to the extent none of Harry’s foes want to try to break in from next door does not change the fact this is a voluntarily assumed pattern of behaviour on Leas part and not an obligation. There is still no obligation for Mab to assume. This is ‘protection’ Harry neither asked for or wants. Unless she was subject to a bargain or compact, Lea cannot intervene in the mortal world, so she has limited herself to the Never Never because she doesn’t need a bargain to do that, she is still hoping Harry will enter into a bargain, and indeed is still offering one.

If it were that simple than when Mab took over that ‘obligation’ then the Castle would  come out not in Leas murder Garden, but instead Arctis Tor in the Never Never which would back up another of my theories that Harry is seeking to achieve exactly that.

[vincentric]

I frowned. "You locked her away somewhere, but you're keeping her promises?"

Something cold and haughty flickered through Mab's eyes. "Promises must be kept," she murmured, and the words made wave, wind, and stone tremble. "My vassal's oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them."

"Does that mean that you will help me?" I asked.

"It means that I will give you what she might give you," Mab said, "and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy."


That's Point 1  This is Mab saying she must cover Lea's obligation to Harry because she has Lea locked in ice and unable to fulfill her bargain

Point 2  This is Lea after getting out of the ice saying that her bargain with Margaret is still active with no expiration date

I frowned. “But . . . you sold my debt to Mab.”

“Precisely. At an excellent price, I might add. So now, all that remains twixt thou and I is your mother’s bargain. Unless you would prefer to enter another compact, of course . . .”

Point 3  This is what Lea has done in keeping that bargain. The fact that it often helped her stalk Harry originally for his debt is explained. But the debt is gone now so only protection remains. and note that this conversation takes place Before they leave for Chichen Itza. Lea helps Harry on this quest because Mab orders her to during Harry's initiation and Winter Knight bargain at the Stone Table.

Indeed, child,” she said. “Did you not think it strange that in your turmoil-strewn time here none of your foes—not one—ever sought to enter from the other side? Never sent a spirit given form directly into your bed, your shower, your refrigerator? Never poured a basket of asps into your closet so that they sought refuge in your shoes, your boots, the pockets of your clothing?” She shook her head. “Sweet, sweet child. Had you walked much farther, you would have seen the mound of bones of all the things that have attempted to reach you, and which I have destroyed.”

“Yeah, well. I nearly wound up there myself.”

“La,” she said, smiling. “My guardians were created to attack any intruder—including one that looked like you. We couldn’t have some clever shapeshifter slipping by, now, could we?” She sighed. “You took a terrible toll on my primroses. Honestly, child, there are elements other than fire, you know. You really ought to diversify. Now I have two gaping maws to feed instead of one.”

“I’ll . . . be more careful next time,” I said.

“I should appreciate such a thing.” She studied me quietly. “It has been true for your entire lifetime, child. I have followed you in the spirit world. Created guardians and defenses ’pon the other side to ward your sleep, to stand sentinel over your home. And you still have only the beginnings of an idea of how many have tried.” She smiled, showing her delicately pointed canine teeth again. “Tried, and failed.”

Which also explained how she was always near at hand whenever I had entered the Nevernever. How she would be upon my trail in seconds whenever I went in.

Because she had been there, protecting me.

Point 4 Lea takes over teaching Molly while Harry is walkabout in GS. She even continues to teach Harry  when she is about to be assaulted by Listen and crew. Do you think this is because of her whimsical fae nature?

I am taking the quote, just not the parts which are being implied into it without any provenance. Treating something as a fact when it is nothing more than a theory still does not make it a fact. I am not called Conspiracy Factualist.

As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker, she moved in next door to keep a better eye on Harry, and to the extent none of Harry’s foes want to try to break in from next door does not change the fact this is a voluntarily assumed pattern of behaviour on Leas part and not an obligation. There is still no obligation for Mab to assume. This is ‘protection’ Harry neither asked for or wants. Unless she was subject to a bargain or compact, Lea cannot intervene in the mortal world, so she has limited herself to the Never Never because she doesn’t need a bargain to do that, she is still hoping Harry will enter into a bargain, and indeed is still offering one.

If it were that simple than when Mab took over that ‘obligation’ then the Castle would  come out not in Leas murder Garden, but instead Arctis Tor in the Never Never which would back up another of my theories that Harry is seeking to achieve exactly that.

No, you're just taking out the parts of the book that contradict your theories and ignoring them. The books(Remember them?) go into many examples of how liege to vassal debt works. A good theory should include observing the actual phenomena available pertaining to it's subject.

I'm not trying to attack you. I actually find you insightful and innovative much of the time. But you tend to get your head canon confused with the actual book text. Or do you not realize that there is more provenance in the books for this being the way obligations work than there is for your direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach theory?

[forumghost]

As an aside, this also means that Mab had to take over paying the Za Guard while Harry was stuck in AT, which I find hilarious.

Imagine Mab in a shitty chain pizza restaurant.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle, prior to that he owed Mab favours (through Lea) meaning he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab. Mab was not Nicky’s vassal when she owed him a favour, nor is she Butters (and through him The White God) because she owes him a favour.

Vassallage is a bilateral relationship - Harry owes Mab, but Mab owes Harry. A favour is unilateral relationship, there is no corresponding obligation on the Person who is owed the favour. Mab took on all of Harry’s obligations when he was incapacitated, from tutoring Molly, to feeding the Za Guard to returning Harry’s overdue Library books which burnt in his basement in Changes (she obviously reconstituted them from the ashes  handed them in and paid the fine) because he was her vassal.

The Fae can only apparently interact with mortals through a bargain i.e. an exercise of free will by the mortal. This would suggest the mortal has not to be under a disability, e.g. of age of sound mind and not intoxicated. Harry was still a minor in calling upon Lea for the first time he could not make a bargain with her. Ergo the bargain was with his mother to protect him. That was the first time (in file) Harry was physically threatened that we are aware of. The next time is in Restoration of Faith and there is no Lea to protect Harry. Harry is of age at this point suggesting his mothers bargain had expired by effluxion of time. Lea at this point is trying to inveigle Harry into his own bargain, which he stupidly does in GP, only to pull the Mushroom trick.

Harry has had the benefit of his bargain with Lea by being healed by her, his reneging on it and commuting it to ‘favours’ she has no obligation to Harry, it is he who has an obligation to Lea. Harry could die at any time with no progeny leaving his ‘favours’ unfulfilled, leaving Lea with a bad debt, but Lea has no corresponding obligation to protect Harry to do so without invitation is (1) meddling in mortal affairs and (2) leaves her with an unresolved gift, as Harry will not give anything in return . The only thing that Lea can do to protect her investment Harry has to be purely in the NeverNever so she creates the Murder Garden, not only to protect Harry but to spy on him and perhaps influence him in ways consistent with his Mothers bargain i.e beget Maggie.

Mab has given Harry a gift (Christmas Eve) but that is a boon to her Vassal who performed above expectations that year at the height of her powers a reward rather than a first. However no such vassalage relationship exists between Lea and Harry.

What I am trying to do is puzzle out the interactions applying between Fae and mortals, which by its nature HAS to be consistent with the exception of the nemfected. Quoting from the text is of limited value because it is based on Harry as an unreliable narrator with him having  in the early books a limited understanding of the different relationships of favours, obligations, Vassallage etc. It should be noted that the Mantle includes an automatic adherence to Winter Law, meaning that Harry pre Changes point of view of these factors is very different to that of post changes he ‘knows’ things he previously only guessed at. The same facts looked at post-Changes may be assessed very differently by Harry.

[Mira]

Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle, prior to that he owed Mab favours (through Lea) meaning he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab. Mab was not Nicky’s vassal when she owed him a favour, nor is she Butters (and through him The White God) because she owes him a favour.

  If I remember correctly, Mab took over Harry's original bargain/contract with Lea back in Summer Knight that is how she forced for lack of a better word him to work for her to solve the murder.  Remember the scene where he as he was a mere mortal had made no bargain with her, and Mab promptly forced him to push a letter spike through his hand?  But even after that happened, Lea still was trying to help her godson, she also warned him about getting too close to the stone table.

[forumghost]

Harry was still a minor in calling upon Lea for the first time he could not make a bargain with her.

Err... yes he did. The bargain he had with Lea was the one that he made before he faced Justin- his life for the power to face his Master (though Lea cheated him with the magic feather).

Harry even calls her out on this at the start of Grave Peril "You shouldn't make contracts with a Minor" were his words iirc.
It's just that Harry was able to avoid fulfilling his end of the bargain because Lea was mostly content to wait in the Never Never. Harry's breakdown at Bianca's party was because it was Lea's third time demanding he keep the Bargain (once as a teenage, once after he and Michael fought the ghost, once at the party) and rule of three caused his magic to fuck him up for breaking his word.

[Mira]

Err... yes he did. The bargain he had with Lea was the one that he made before he faced Justin- his life for the power to face his Master (though Lea cheated him with the magic feather).

Harry even calls her out on this at the start of Grave Peril "You shouldn't make contracts with a Minor" were his words iirc.
It's just that Harry was able to avoid fulfilling his end of the bargain because Lea was mostly content to wait in the Never Never. Harry's breakdown at Bianca's party was because it was Lea's third time demanding he keep the Bargain (once as a teenage, once after he and Michael fought the ghost, once at the party) and rule of three caused his magic to fuck him up for breaking his word.

Yes, all the while claiming she was trying to protect him by wanting to turn him into one of her hounds. It was Harry's fear of her collecting on their bargain that motivated him to try and kill her with a Holy Sword which he promptly lost to her, because the Sword wouldn't allow itself to be used that way.

[morriswalters]

I wouldn't sell Harry a used car, he'd probably quit making the payments. But is has nothing to do with Lea protecting him. The bargain that has been protecting him was one between Lea and Margaret. We have no idea what that bargain is all about.

So to recap.  Harry makes bargains with Lea.  Lea sells those bargains to Mab during a power play by Mab. Mab renegotiates and offers Harry a cleaner bargain and works it so Harry owes her three favors.

Lea is still fulfilling her obligation to Margaret to protect Harry as of Changes, after which she has been out of  sight.

That is pretty much how it plays out in the books. I would post the  relevant quotes but that seems to be pointless. Read Summer Knight it has the gist.

[Yuillegan]

Nameless is of course Cowl

I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...

But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.

[Mira]

I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...

But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.

You are correct, Cowl, from the descriptions of him, powerful, yes, some black magic, yes, but he is no demi-god.

Lea is still fulfilling her obligation to Margaret to protect Harry as of Changes, after which she has been out of  sight.

I wouldn't say that, in Ghost Story when she and Harry have their little talk, and she helps him to remember, she is still helping him to get information that in the later books his life might depend.

[vincentric]

Nameless is an interesting new character but there is nothing to indicate whether he is or is not Cowl.

The only real indications of his actual power are from Bob telling Harry who he is and how Harry probably can't take him and from how he reacts to Mab and Marcone.

As far as magic goes, he never actually does anything in the story besides trade verbal threats with Harry in his office, staying very much in character as a powerful supernatural evil lawyer.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...

But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.

Read The Law two important clues are dropped (1) Nameless worked with (not for) Kemmler and was paperclipped  into Winter and Cowl was familiar with Kemmler and especially Bob, but dismissive of his students. (2) Nameless was banned from Arctis Tor after the attack in Proven Guilty (he wasn’t at Harry’s birthday party) with the clear implication he was involved. The alleged purpose of the attack was to free the Nemfected Lea, before she could be cured and of course it was Cowl in Grave Peril who infected Lea in the first place with the Athame.

This course of action suggests Nameless has been working inside Winter to undermine it, and therefore the Accords and the Defence of the Outer Gates. Nameless is powerful enough to subdue a Finnish Witch, which in the good old days took three Wardens to achieve, so he is as powerful as at least three Wardens (who are individually considerably less powerful on average than Harry). There is no intimation Nameless is immortal, merely ageless, like many of the Fae, suggesting a power level less than the Winter Lady (the least powerful immortal shown) and that he can be hurt and killed (Harry has hurt Cowl, at least twice) and the Darkhallow would have been a route to full godhood, immortality and power, something both Cowl and Nameless would pursue.

Oh and by the way Cowl’s costume would have been appropriate for a High Court Judge in the UK up to the 1300’s, who indeed wore cowls. Nameless practices as a lawyer in the US a common law jurisdiction derived from the UK legal common law system, so presumably was previously practicing in that system before this. He is a Demi-god of discord after all.