Author Topic: Overarching point of first few books  (Read 4769 times)

Offline BrainFireBob

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Overarching point of first few books
« on: August 12, 2022, 03:52:11 AM »
Bit of a one-off thought I've yet to see anywhere.

The first three major cases- Sells, Kravos, the Hexenwolves- they were about revealing the supernatural world in an undeniable way. Chicago was picked for its proximity to Demonreach, but the point was to do what Battle Ground did- tear down the veil.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2022, 10:04:45 AM »
The first two books have an unidentified X who taught Victor Sells magic and tried to suborn the  FBI with the Hexenwulf Belts. They are major cases because of this. Grave Peril introduced Cowl as a major intriguer working in Chicago and a lot of people consider it was Cowl responsible for the first two books protagonists. It therefore makes senses that Cowl is to some degree behind each of the major cases. It is Cowl sowing discord to rile up the Vampire Courts, to upset Faerie, create division in the White Council, behind the rise of the Fomor, aiming the Denarians at Chicago for their schemes etc. The proximity of Demonreach to Chicago may explain why Chicago in the long run, but also the presence of Dresden. A Starborn of interest to Mab’s secondin Chicago.

Offline Mira

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2022, 03:06:25 PM »


  The theme of the first half of the series is something is going haywire in the supernatural world.  Guys like Victor Sells shouldn't suddenly acquire the knowledge and skills to blow people's hearts apart from long distance, F.B.I. Agents shouldn't be able to acquire hexenwolf belts, and all the while the White Council seems oblivious to it.. Harry can see there these events are not one ofs and that something or someone is behind it who he calls The Black Council.. So he sets out to find out who they are, he gets blamed for some of it, he gains some allies, and the picture gets more complicated by the end of Dead Beat..

Offline g33k

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2022, 07:06:15 PM »
Bit of a one-off thought I've yet to see anywhere.

The first three major cases- Sells, Kravos, the Hexenwolves- they were about revealing the supernatural world in an undeniable way. Chicago was picked for its proximity to Demonreach, but the point was to do what Battle Ground did- tear down the veil.

I think it's exactly the opposite -- those were about maintaining the "masquerade" for the muggles.

Sells was working in the "undeworld" -- not only hard-to-trace-mundanely (being magic), but also hiding (as a criminal).  ThirdEye was seen as just another hallucinogen by the authorities, and the deaths were just mysterious deaths.  No risk of exposure.
Kravos ("the Nightmare") was even-further from Muggle perception, using dreams & mind-magic.
The FBI agents were also hiding their Hexenwulf identities.

Offline Mira

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2022, 08:22:46 PM »
I think it's exactly the opposite -- those were about maintaining the "masquerade" for the muggles.

Sells was working in the "undeworld" -- not only hard-to-trace-mundanely (being magic), but also hiding (as a criminal).  ThirdEye was seen as just another hallucinogen by the authorities, and the deaths were just mysterious deaths.  No risk of exposure.
Kravos ("the Nightmare") was even-further from Muggle perception, using dreams & mind-magic.
The FBI agents were also hiding their Hexenwulf identities.

And most wizards on the Senior Council not only didn't take Harry serious when he suggested that there was something called the Black Council, there were those who thought he was only deflecting his own guilt.  He wasn't right but nor was he wrong, it turns out the picture is a lot move complicated, and even at this stage there are no clear answers.

Offline g33k

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2022, 10:46:49 PM »
And most wizards on the Senior Council not only didn't take Harry serious when he suggested that there was something called the Black Council, there were those who thought he was only deflecting his own guilt...

IIRC, Harry didn't even try to claim (officially, to the WC; or to the Senior Council... or even (officially) to the Wardens) that there was a "Black Council" operating in secret.

Eb (and Carlos) explained to Harry that this would be political suicide for the Senior Council, and likely death-knell to the entire WC itself.

The White Council is supposed to be all the badass wizards & the "Knowing Ones:"  the people who can figure out your most-secret weaknesses, and exploit them.  That there could -- even possibly -- be another entire organization of wizards (just as badass but even better at secrets!) would have seen WC wizards quitting in droves to go join that BC -- the "Better" Council.

Offline Mira

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2022, 11:15:03 PM »
Quote
IIRC, Harry didn't even try to claim (officially, to the WC; or to the Senior Council... or even (officially) to the Wardens) that there was a "Black Council" operating in secret

Why would he?  He knew he wouldn't be taken seriously.
Quote
Eb (and Carlos) explained to Harry that this would be political suicide for the Senior Council, and likely death-knell to the entire WC itself.

Yes, they chose to ignore the danger, to pretend what was going on around them wasn't a threat.

Quote
The White Council is supposed to be all the badass wizards & the "Knowing Ones:"  the people who can figure out your most-secret weaknesses, and exploit them.  That there could -- even possibly -- be another entire organization of wizards (just as badass but even better at secrets!) would have seen WC wizards quitting in droves to go join that BC -- the "Better" Council.
Yup, to put it crudely they had their heads so far up their collective asses, they could neither hear nor see what was going on.

Offline g33k

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2022, 12:51:00 AM »
Why would he?  He knew he wouldn't be taken seriously.
My point was that he never did address it in any "official" capacity.

... the Senior Council not only didn't take Harry serious when he suggested that there was something called the Black Council...
They wouldn't have; but also, he never did.

But actually, it's the nature of this kind of conflict that Eb & others were right, in saying not to unearth this.  In cases of "covert ops" and "disinformation campaigns" and "psy-ops," one of the chief advantages of the "Grey Council" is that they too were operating in secret.  The Black Council had been spotted, and there was organized resistance to the Black Council... and the BC didn't  yet know they had been found out!

Just as it was an advantage to the BC to operate in secret, so it was for the GC.



Offline Ed0517

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2022, 03:04:19 AM »

Yes, they chose to ignore the danger, to pretend what was going on around them wasn't a threat.

I do not think they chose to ignore it, they are simply taking less overt means to counter it - see the Gray Council.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2022, 03:27:50 AM »
I think it's exactly the opposite -- those were about maintaining the "masquerade" for the muggles.

Sells was working in the "undeworld" -- not only hard-to-trace-mundanely (being magic), but also hiding (as a criminal).  ThirdEye was seen as just another hallucinogen by the authorities, and the deaths were just mysterious deaths.  No risk of exposure.
Kravos ("the Nightmare") was even-further from Muggle perception, using dreams & mind-magic.
The FBI agents were also hiding their Hexenwulf identities.

Check again.

Three Eye granted Sight- veil destroying Sight- to mortals.

The FBI were trying to expose the loup garou to hide their own activities.

And Kravos was empowering ghost appearances with far more power.

All of these things would expose the supernatural- seeing through glamours and veils, undeniable ghost events, a real loup garou.

Marcone was the obstacle against literal widespread eye opening to the supernatural- no surprise the second plot aimed at his removal.

Edit: As a further note, Sells worked for SilverCo and was using rituals. Harry got involved after meeting Marcone- the major obstacle to spreading 3 Eye- in his car.

The second book was targeted, through a cat's paw- at Marcone.

Truth, I also think Lord Raith was the primary antagonist through the first few books
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 03:45:50 AM by BrainFireBob »

Offline Mira

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2022, 02:54:54 PM »
I do not think they chose to ignore it, they are simply taking less overt means to counter it - see the Gray Council.

  But the Gray Council is in of itself a secret group.  A group who doesn't trust it's fellow Council members to either recognize the danger or see the need to counter the Black Council. They also fear repercussions if their fellow Council members found out.

Offline g33k

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2022, 04:49:33 PM »
Three Eye granted Sight- veil destroying Sight- to mortals.
Not quite as simple as that; it was addictive, and people only got the Sight while they were high (and borderline irrational).  "Everybody knows" you can't believe what's seen on a hallucinatory high.  So this channel is inherently discredited -- from the muggle POV -- from the beginning.

Even Harry didn't think it was anything other than "just another street-drug," until one of the addicts called out HWWB.

If you already know about the supernatural and the Sight -- if you're already a practitioner -- then it's relatively easy to confirm the validity of ThreeEye; but virtually impossible, for Muggles to even want to do so, or to try; let alone to succeed.

As an "unmask the masquerade" project, ThreeEye is kind of a non-starter.

The FBI were trying to expose the loup garou to hide their own activities.
Again, I think there's more complexity here:  The FBI agents were pretty wide-ranging in scope, and couldn't "cover their tracks" with a single Loup Garou in Chicago.  They were just taking advantage of the specifics of this particular case to muddy the waters a bit.  But a "wolf" isn't going to "expose the supernatural" -- it's just a wolf!
Truth, I also think Lord Raith was the primary antagonist through the first few books
(Also, of course, Jim was writing "the werewolf book" and wanted multiple kinds of werewolf.)

And Kravos was empowering ghost appearances with far more power.
Except ghosts -- like hallucinogenic drugs -- are an inherently non-credible channel to expose the supernatural.  The muggles already have their built-in excuses and firmly-worn blinkers.


Truth, I also think Lord Raith was the primary antagonist through the first few books
I think you are right about this; but then, I think that weakens your main premise -- the Whamps would hate to have a widespread awareness of the supernatural amongst the mortals!

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2022, 12:24:06 AM »
  But the Gray Council is in of itself a secret group.  A group who doesn't trust it's fellow Council members to either recognize the danger or see the need to counter the Black Council. They also fear repercussions if their fellow Council members found out.

Ah, but can we be sure Langtry does not have a Beige Council we do not know about of his own? Possibly with Mei. Does Martha Liberty have agents? He likely has his own feelers and agents out there. All of the Council may be taking action - disjoint, less efficient action, but action.

Offline Mira

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2022, 10:11:30 AM »
Ah, but can we be sure Langtry does not have a Beige Council we do not know about of his own? Possibly with Mei. Does Martha Liberty have agents? He likely has his own feelers and agents out there. All of the Council may be taking action - disjoint, less efficient action, but action.

  The proof that there isn't is the fact that these fires keep cropping up and it is left to Harry of all people to put them out.  It's kind of like climate change, a lot of talk, a lot of denial, very little action, mostly reaction.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Overarching point of first few books
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2022, 11:04:20 AM »
We can assume Langtry has an off-white Council of his personal cronies. We have seen him chafe under consensus building when things don’t go his way, and they took the younger wardens into custody to prevent them coming to Harry’s aid. I think Justin was one of his and Bob was his price.