The Archive

[g33k]

  However it wasn't snowing if I remember correctly when they arrived.  I cannot remember what time of year they did show up, only either the Cubs had no home games when the duel was scheduled, or it was off season..   At that time the Cubs weren't in any playoffs either if I remember correctly so Mid- October to early spring, [not sure when baseball season begins] so yeah, it can get quite cool that time of year.  Actually in most parts of the country one can have chilly evenings and mornings.

It was very very cold; Luccio & the Archive had to be in the cab, Harry was in pretty bad shape from riding home (wet, it must be admitted) in the bed of the truck.

[morriswalters]

This is in Small Favor and it was during a blizzard.  Harry is attacked in the Carpenter's backyard during a snowball fight to kick off the book.

[Lehane]

Ever since Dresden met the Archive and realized what she was, he has never approached her for information about his mother, being Star Born, the Nickelheads, the wards on the island & now his new home/castle or any other issues.
Seems he has missed an opportunity.  It’s odd.  He is smarter than this.

Topic moved to DF Spoilers as subject likely will cover spoiler material - Mod team

I don't know if someone has already mentioned this but Nicodemus likes to destroy records kept on him whenever he can. Michael Carpenter mentions this in Grave Peril.

Now in Small Favor he had the Archive at his mercy, it hasn't been mentioned but I would assume while Tessa and Rosanna were torturing Ivy, Nicodemus used the distraction to magically/forcibly delete information on him from the Archive.

It is the type of move I would expect from him. Thusly the Archive might not have much info on Nicodemus anymore.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s why he wanted to subvert the Archive as well as have acces to her power.

[g33k]

... I would assume while Tessa and Rosanna were torturing Ivy, Nicodemus used the distraction to magically/forcibly delete information on him from the Archive ...

I don't think he can.  I mean... yes, obviously Anduriel has the power & knowledge; but I think that's the sort of explicitly-against-the-rules action that would give Uriel &co a HUGE amount of scope to act in response... Something even bigger than a fanservice Jedi Knight of the Cross.

[vincentric]

I don't know if someone has already mentioned this but Nicodemus likes to destroy records kept on him whenever he can. Michael Carpenter mentions this in Grave Peril.

Now in Small Favor he had the Archive at his mercy, it hasn't been mentioned but I would assume while Tessa and Rosanna were torturing Ivy, Nicodemus used the distraction to magically/forcibly delete information on him from the Archive.

It is the type of move I would expect from him. Thusly the Archive might not have much info on Nicodemus anymore.

I doubt this takes place.

For one, Nic and his cronies never do break through the Archives defenses. She's captured and helpless but still has a core of resistance when rescued.

Secondly, we have no indication that information can be deleted from the Archive. She can be killed but considering her role against the Outsiders, I would posit that her mantle has absolute proof against tampering short of destruction. Whoever set it up even made it broad enough to encompass methods of recording not even dreamed of by mortals at the time of it's creation. We don't even know if Ivy actually deletes the information of an Outsider erased by the Venatori(There may be a WoJ that contradicts me.) or if she just puts the information in a secure compartment in her brain with a do not open ever protocol.

And finally, the Archive is neutral even to the point of non-retaliation outside of immediate threats. She won't give out infomation for any reason that isn't directly part of her purpose. Nic and his crew are not working with the Outsiders as far as she know, otherwise all their hideouts would be exposed, their finances ruined and their pictures posted in every LEO office in the world to balance that assault.

[g33k]

... Nic and his cronies never do break through the Archives defenses. She's captured and helpless but still has a core of resistance when rescued ...

Well... maybe.

I have an alternate WAG; I don't think Jim has planned it this way, but ... nothing written actually precludes it.

What if they broke Ivy... or even bargained with her, convinced her that accepting a Denarius would benefit the Archive's work???

Maybe the "resucue" was staged, and Ivy was simply playing the role of "helpless victim" & engaging Harry's "protect the young" reflexes (and consequent turn-off-the-brain behaviors)?

We know that a mere Shadow can override the senses of their host.  There's no reason she would actually have to be suffering, there in the "prison" they had placed her in.  (come to think of it:  Lasciel's shadow had shown Harry some solid pain-management methods; it's entirely-likely that the Archive knew enough to render Ivy immune to such things... which in turn turns up the likelihood that the whole "Ivy being tormented" scene was staged for effect, not genuine!)

... Secondly, we have no indication that information can be deleted from the Archive ... We don't even know if Ivy actually deletes the information of an Outsider erased by the Venatori(There may be a WoJ that contradicts me.) or if she just puts the information in a secure compartment in her brain with a do not open ever protocol ...

I'm pretty sure WoJ says "erased," but ... we see Bob (who seems to be lesser model of the Archive) only ever does the "compartmentalization" thing.  Jim may have been speaking (or thinking) sloppily at the moment the question was asked. 

Or he may have lied, in service of the story & not-revealing-spoilers.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nicky was trying to break Ivy, it is possible her mothers suicide indicates this. At that point Nicky has a Rasmussen? style host, the body effectively run by a Fallen in a total abdication of free will to the Fallen.

At that point Nicky has a Fallen Archive with no pesky free will. The Fallen absorbs the entirety of the information of the Archive (all recorded information of humanity to date, even that previously destroyed ) and the host body is then superfluous.

The question is - what was Nicky looking for in the Archive? Information lost or obscured even from Anduriel? What information would justify him being thrown out the Accords and having the entire supernatural world at his throat? Was he looking for clues to the whereabouts of the Spear? He risked his daughter for that. Did this give the opening for him to be set up in Skin Game? Uriel is an intellectus, he would know what they were interrogating the Archive about, he could do nothing about it and Nicky would know this, indeed glory in it, he had done what he could already do in granting Harry Soul Fire. Nicky wouldn’t know Mab was already working with Uriel, the use of Kringle as a go-between was an established thing, an open route for information probably thought limited to Christmas rather than an information route directly into Winter. Mab and Uriel may have burnt this particular route with Nicky now with the benefit of hindsight. He knows he was had. Thinking about it Mab knew she had spies in her court (Nameless) so using Kringle prevented Anduriel or Nameless finding out about the contact and the flow of information, especially Odin is a security expert - as Kringle he provided a secure back channel.

[Tinfoil hat]

To answer the og question about why harry never asked the archive or eb, or anyone else about starborn, his mom or any other spoiler is that the price is probably too high. Also i think wizard mentors drill the students on the price of information.
Harry wasn't abuse but molly never asked about the skull.  Harry probably made it difficult for  molly to ask  too many questions that so that in the future she would know that curiosity definitely kills the cat. Im sure justin was the type to punish you if you asked a question he didn't like, or thought you weren't ready for. Wizards learn early on to hoard knowledge like smaug hoards gold

[Ed0517]

I don't think he can.  I mean... yes, obviously Anduriel has the power & knowledge;

I'm not so sure about that. We don't know what powers designed and built her. Andy can probably DESTROY her beyond recovery, but maybe it triggers essentially a > FORMAT C:  and wipes her clean? Her engineer likely has some sort of offsite backup (a mirror image clone? quantum state drives?) so he will have access to the info, but denies it to the other side.  If her walls are crumbling... I think she self destructs. Her Masada subroutine.

Really, there's got to be a backup plan. What if her train going to Chicago crashes? Maybe some other Archive had multiple daughters and they transfer it to a cadet line? Some woman who doesn't even know the story of the Archive becomes her?

[g33k]

... We don't know what powers designed and built her ...

This.

EVER so much this!

We really don't know.

... Andy can probably DESTROY her beyond recovery, but maybe it triggers essentially a > FORMAT C:  and wipes her clean? ...

My own sense of it -- just a hunch, I have neither Canon nor WoJ to cite in support -- is that the Archive is a Demonreach-caliber enchantment.  It was probably created by some Mediterranean ur-Wizard figure (akin to what Merlin was, up-north).

If I'm right, then an Angel-caliber being -- if acting without restraints -- could simply bypass all the protections, freeze any "emergency/contingency" processes, and unwrap the all the Archive's stored knowledge like the worlds biggest pile of birthday presents.  I simply think that such unrestrained action (by the Fallen) would free Uriel (and other Angels... including those who are inclined to direct & even violent action) to take counter-measures, and (for example) the Archangel Michael would kick their butts.

If the Archive was actually built by some god-level being, an Angel, or the like... then yeah, it's probably not susceptible to force even by Andy & co.  But I don't think this is the case:  those sorts of beings would have foreseen something like the Internet, and WoJ has stated that the Internet was unforeseen by the Archive's creator.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Probably the same entity who designed and built the Fae Mantles, both are constructs designed to protect humanity from outside interference therefore that entity has a vested interest in humanity’s survival. That would suggest it is the White God.

This is understandable if the White God arises from humanity through something like the singularity, enough human consciousness and their technology lead to the creation in the future of the White God. Why not? Humanity has created several of the monsters like the Redcap, the Gremlins and the Baku featured in the Files so why not the White God? Once coming into existence the White God will have existed for all time.

The White God I theorise proscribed the existence of the heavy hitters from the mortal world, they could power down like Odin, retreat to the Never Never like Hades or suffer Demonreach like Ethnui. This left the minor threats, things at a level humanity and it’s technology could band against and overcome as a spur to humanity’s development of society and technology the vampires, the ghouls, the Wildfae etc, threats to individual humans but not humanity. Threats from outside were dealt with by the Courts and the Archive. Threats from the Fallen by the Knights and other champions. None of this interferes with the free will of humanity required for it to develop towards the singularity and the creation of the White God.

[morriswalters]

If only there were a being around that had a vast storehouse of knowledge and who, with enhancement similar to Anduriel's, was available for the job. One who had no restrictions on what it could do.

[g33k]

Probably the same entity who designed and built the Fae Mantles, both are constructs designed to protect humanity from outside interference therefore that entity has a vested interest in humanity’s survival. That would suggest it is the White God ...

No, the Lady/Queen/Mantle division was -- I strongly suspect -- done by an ancient north-Mediterrenian deity (or trio); done to itself.  Also the bifurcation into Summer/Winter.  The "self" is kept in the Mother(s)*; Queens and Ladies change more often, and keep some portion of their original identities (Mab& Titania still recall theirs).

They constructed their own Mantles, invested perhaps a High Priestess, or some nymph, as the very-first Queens, and their daughters as the very-first Ladies.

I suspect this is (like Odin's action) a method chosen specifically to enable them to continue acting within the mortal realm.


(*) n.b. the Mothers -- those most-extreme & most-primal expressions of the ever-warring Summer & Winter -- cohabit the same space in the deep Nevernever.  I think, at the Mother level, the differences are really rather minor...  Maybe only even existing as a difference from the limited mortal POV (how's that for a WAG?).
 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

No, the Lady/Queen/Mantle division was -- I strongly suspect -- done by an ancient north-Mediterrenian deity (or trio); done to itself.  Also the bifurcation into Summer/Winter.  The "self" is kept in the Mother(s)*; Queens and Ladies change more often, and keep some portion of their original identities (Mab& Titania still recall theirs).

They constructed their own Mantles, invested perhaps a High Priestess, or some nymph, as the very-first Queens, and their daughters as the very-first Ladies.

I suspect this is (like Odin's action) a method chosen specifically to enable them to continue acting within the mortal realm.


(*) n.b. the Mothers -- those most-extreme & most-primal expressions of the ever-warring Summer & Winter -- cohabit the same space in the deep Nevernever.  I think, at the Mother level, the differences are really rather minor...  Maybe only even existing as a difference from the limited mortal POV (how's that for a WAG?).

I doubt this, the Roman/Greek gods were the Defenders of the Outer Gates before Winter. They obviously had problems maintaining this position but were given the option of relinquishing power into the Mantles to allow others to step up and take their place. This would have allowed them to either continue in the mortal world in a powered down mode or to maintain their power like Hades (and the Mothers) and retreat permanently to the NeverNever, not putting power into the Mantles. The fact that Hades was the custodian of the White Gods superweapons would appear to support this position.

The wrestling book probably contains  exposition on this point, as you would expect the Roman /Greek Gods so portrayed to be in the powered down mode, like powerful Fae ageless but with no susceptibility to iron but perhaps NOT immortal in the sense that they can come back from near total obliteration as the Erl King and Odin (due to the Kringle Mantle) we’re able to. Pretty much every immortal we have seen is tied to either Summer or Winter, the exception is the Naagloshii and well we know they are all destined for Demonreach. Puck’s power level would suggest he is immortal (he is at Lea’s level) and he is Wildfae, so doubtless Demonreach awaits him as well when Harry next meets him in a hundred years.

The original Archive could have been for example a powered down Muse, like Clio (Muse of history) the excess power poured into the Mantles and rendered mortal but a powerful practitioner, with a limited Intellectus.