The Archive

[Kvothe]

Ever since Dresden met the Archive and realized what she was, he has never approached her for information about his mother, being Star Born, the Nickelheads, the wards on the island & now his new home/castle or any other issues.
Seems he has missed an opportunity.  It’s odd.  He is smarter than this.

Topic moved to DF Spoilers as subject likely will cover spoiler material - Mod team

[Yuillegan]

Aside from the obvious (i.e. that Jim can't make it too easy for Dresden, has to have him discover things along the way otherwise there won't be any more books), I think there are a few in-universe possibilities.

The main one being that the Archive is supposedly neutral. I believe the Archive itself is neutral except when defending itself, and perhaps the threat of a being like Ethniu was enough of a loophole. Ivy herself is separate from the Archive due to Harry's meddling...this will have consequences of course, but I believe one of those is that Ivy can be a bit less neutral than previous avatars of the Archive. That being said, back in Changes Harry tries to get the Archive to tell him the location of his daughter, and Ivy cannot. I believe Kincaid even presses the point and implies there is some sort of impediment (likely magical).

Secondly, even if Dresden could ask all the questions he needed to it isn't really like him to do so. Yes, he has an investigative mind...but only when it comes to things external. Only most recently is he prepared to look inward. He hates it. He is improving, but I suspect he doesn't really want to look into who his mother really was and her associations for fear of what he might find. He's had enough hints to know there is plenty of dark stuff there. And Dresden often doesn't take revelations well.

Thirdly, he has been exceptionally busy the past few years. Since Changes really. I hope he will eventually get time to uncover some secrets but likely it will all be "on the job" so to speak.

Finally, information is valuable. Despite his friendship with Ivy (which is actually quite frosty since Changes) I doubt that even were they able to move past all that she would just give him all the information for free. Sure, she might give as much as she could. But I suspect there would be a price for the really good stuff. Not a trade-for-your-soul type deal, but certainly in favors or other obligations. Harry has enough of those as it is!

[forumghost]

Harry and not asking questions he knows he really should is one of the series most iconic duo's, right next to Harry and blunt force trauma.

[morriswalters]

Kincaid returned to the phone and said, “Ivy says she can’t get involved. That the business you’re on is deadly. She dares not unbalance it for fear of changing the outcome.”

I made a growling sound. “Goddammit, Kincaid. She owes me one. Remind her who came and took her away from those fucking Denarian lunatics.”

Kincaid’s voice became quieter, more sober. “Believe me, she remembers, Dresden. But she isn’t free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can’t tell you, she’s being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head.”

That is the rationale. She can't help.  In her own way she is bound as much as an Angel.

[Ed0517]

Also, a lot of that sort of stuff likely is not written down! Who is writing down the wards and tricks to their castle - if anyone finds it, they may be able to thwart your defenses! Or reverse engineer them.

The Nickelheads may have a lot written about them. Possibly a WHOLE lot. And much may be contradictory - we do not know she can sort out true from false, just she knows what is reported.

Who would write down much about his Mom? Maybe Eb, but that is likely it.

And yeah, she likely has to earn a living, so there may be costs involved.

[vincentric]

The Archive should be one of the richest people in the world. She has every bit of information ever recorded in any medium other than the mind at her fingertips. Just think of having access to every Bitcoin in the world, every lost treasure map every secret formula/recipe and how you could leverage that. 

[forumghost]

The Archive should be one of the richest people in the world. She has every bit of information ever recorded in any medium other than the mind at her fingertips. Just think of having access to every Bitcoin in the world, every lost treasure map every secret formula/recipe and how you could leverage that. 

She has everyone's credit card details, we're lucky Ivy is a nice girl

[g33k]

Also, a lot of that sort of stuff likely is not written down! Who is writing down the wards and tricks to their castle - if anyone finds it, they may be able to thwart your defenses! Or reverse engineer them.

Almost everyone would write things down during the planning-it-out phase.  You may destroy the notes, but making them up-front looks nigh-inevitable.

Denarians have the mental capacity to just know things -- Angels I think have something like intellectus for their domain.  And they know enough not to commit critical plans to any form of writing.  Odin likely, too; and Ferrovax & the other dragons.

Mab... maybe.  I think the Archive was a deep secret from before Mab was Mab... even before she was born a mortal girl.

The Nickelheads may have a lot written about them. Possibly a WHOLE lot. And much may be contradictory - we do not know she can sort out true from false, just she knows what is reported. 

I'm pretty sure the Archive has an absolutely superhuman ability to sort information, correlate and organize it.  Denarians are likely the only entities capable of perpetrating a deception upon the Archive, and even THEY will be challenged -- they don't know what other info may be out there, with dangling threads the Archive can tug upon to unravel their lies.

Who would write down much about his Mom? Maybe Eb, but that is likely it.

The Wardens, to begin with.  Harry had seen Warden reports on Hannah Ascher, recognized her on sight.  Morgan kept a journal, and I doubt he was the only one:  wizards live for centuries, and being able to remind yourself of details from long in your past could be crucial.  Eb has a huge set of books from the magical master/apprentice lineage of Merlin.  Wizards love books & writing!

The Whamps, for another.  Lara confirms that House Raith has profiles on most of the Wardens themselves, and I presume they have similar profiles for other "interesting" humans (and other entities, too!).  And we know House Raith thought Margaret LeFay was interesting!

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ramps had kept such records, either.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry and not asking questions he knows he really should is one of the series most iconic duo's, right next to Harry and blunt force trauma.

Oh, lovely Title for a Dresden File BLUNT FORCE “Harry undiplomatically takes the White Council to task whilst simultaneously suffering from multiple concussions” that applies to several books already I think.

The Archive is neutral and has two roles (1) the preservation of human knowledge and through it society and culture (2) the Oblivion War (much the same thing) she became involved in the Battle of Chicago because of (1) the first thing Ethnui did was destroy the electronic records of the City of Chicago, a direct challenge to the Archive.

Harry is aware Ivy is still a vulnerable young girl and so would not take advantage of her for his own gain, it would be anathema. It would also destroy her neutrality. She has the Word of Kemmler and much other dangerous info.

[Yuillegan]

That is the rationale. She can't help.  In her own way she is bound as much as an Angel.

Indeed, although I suspect the limits are not as severe. Jim also makes rules like these and then doesn't bring them up again (I refer again to the Archive's involvement against Ethniu).

The Archive should be one of the richest people in the world. She has every bit of information ever recorded in any medium other than the mind at her fingertips. Just think of having access to every Bitcoin in the world, every lost treasure map every secret formula/recipe and how you could leverage that. 

Assuming she can and would exploit such information of course. Considering the Archive is passed down mother to daughter since it was first created in ancient times (perhaps pre-ancient Greece), I wouldn't be surprised if she has significant financial holdings, so I doubt she would need to exploit any current information. Beyond any of that though, given her abilities and knowledge I doubt she even needs money. Money is simply a tool. She has so many others at her disposal, not to mention she likely could get as much money as she needed for any endeavour exceptionally quickly.

 

[morriswalters]

Indeed, although I suspect the limits are not as severe. Jim also makes rules like these and then doesn't bring them up again (I refer again to the Archive's involvement against Ethniu).

Butcher does this type of thing whenever  it suits him.  He wanted to write a war story and thus threw continuity to the winds.  But mostly he has used her as an observer who is above the fray except for the Oblivion War, which is hidden.

It isn't a thing where Harry has never asked these type of questions, because he has.  He just gets rebuffed.  Either the price is too high or something interferes. Butcher is a tease and probably hasn't thought of the answers yet.

[Mira]

  I think the short story and now from what we saw in both Peace Talks and Battle Ground, is Ivy has learned that being close to someone in a personal emotional human way, while it has benefits, it can also bring pain.  For her own sanity she made the logical and for her correct choice, she is what she is, The Archive, and cannot allow her human side to interfere.  I think Harry understands this on an intellectual level, but he is still hurt by it.  I also think he understands that his choices did cause Ivy pain, the damage that pain could have caused and that she is no longer Ivy, but is what she is and always was, the Archive.  I don't think however that he or Kincaid were wrong in trying to treat her like a little girl when she was one. If she is well adjusted at all it is because they chose to do so.

[Ed0517]

Re: Castle wards

Almost everyone would write things down during the planning-it-out phase.  You may destroy the notes, but making them up-front looks nigh-inevitable.

but the guys building the wards are the high mages who will know of the Archive. And that she will learn of it. Those paranoids are the ones building the castles.

Denarians have the mental capacity to just know things -- Angels I think have something like intellectus for their domain.  And they know enough not to commit critical plans to any form of writing.  Odin likely, too; and Ferrovax & the other dragons.

Mab... maybe.  I think the Archive was a deep secret from before Mab was Mab... even before she was born a mortal girl.

I also would not be surprised if Angels have their own writings and scripts unintelligible to humans, including the Archive. But they likely don't have to write it down anyway.  Likewise the actual Fallen, but likely not their Denarian hosts. But they don't look like they are book-of-the-month club members.

Odin and Mab, see the Angels. They are not quite at that level (Odin maybe lower angel? not Uriel, but his foot cops?), and Ferrovax likely above foot cop angel, below Uriel. Likely exceeded only by Uriel and the Mothers. Above Ivy's pay grade. 

I'm pretty sure the Archive has an absolutely superhuman ability to sort information, correlate and organize it.  Denarians are likely the only entities capable of perpetrating a deception upon the Archive, and even THEY will be challenged -- they don't know what other info may be out there, with dangling threads the Archive can tug upon to unravel their lies.

There is sort, organize, and VERIFY. How much can she VERIFY? A computer can store and retrieve. It, or Ivy, can say "Neil DeGrasse Tyson says this on dark matter, and Hawking says this" and present two opposing views. It can be accurate both men made those statement...but at least one has to be WRONG. Can Ivy tell?  A computer or library can't.  (I don't know their view or if they disagree, it's just an arguable topic.)

The Wardens, to begin with.  Harry had seen Warden reports on Hannah Ascher, recognized her on sight.  Morgan kept a journal, and I doubt he was the only one:  wizards live for centuries, and being able to remind yourself of details from long in your past could be crucial.  Eb has a huge set of books from the magical master/apprentice lineage of Merlin.  Wizards love books & writing!

The Whamps, for another.  Lara confirms that House Raith has profiles on most of the Wardens themselves, and I presume they have similar profiles for other "interesting" humans (and other entities, too!).  And we know House Raith thought Margaret LeFay was interesting!

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ramps had kept such records, either.

Point. The Wardens would have such records besides Eb (we have seen she is in his journal) , and there is mention of the Whamps even having files on some trainee wardens. You are correct.  I blew that one.

[Ed0517]

Indeed, although I suspect the limits are not as severe. Jim also makes rules like these and then doesn't bring them up again (I refer again to the Archive's involvement against Ethniu).

We are led to believe she lives at least in the area. A threat to Chicago is not a threat to, say, San Diego.  Her area, so a threat to her.  Plus, getting culture blasted back to the Stone Age or enslaved by an outside force is not "Let them decide between democracy, or socialism, or communism, or a dictatorship - so long as they do it to themselves." 

[g33k]

... but the guys building the wards are the high mages who will know of the Archive. And that she will learn of it. Those paranoids are the ones building the castles. 

I am unclear on the WoJ / fannish knowledge, vs. the in-world knowledge.

How many people in the Dresden'verse actually know the Archive receives all information the moment it is committed to [paper / clay tablet / electrons / whatever]?  One of the Archive's chiefest defenses and tools is that people DON'T know about her.  Particularly, they don't know about the Oblivion War; and even among those who DO know, they probably don't know the Archive's role:  for this one, specific piece of knowledge, her role is to forget.

But whatever degree of info about the Archive's purpose -- do they know HOW she gathers info???

Angelic beings obviously know, Fallen or not.  They were there when the Archive enchantment was being created (maybe 2800-3500 years ago(?) ... that's roughly when Apollo moved into the temple at Delphi, and the Pythia began oracular activity).

Mab may not know:  she has only been "Mab" for about 1000 years.  Presumably the Mothers know, as they were apparently PART of that pantheon; but the fae LOVE their secrets, and Mab certainly doesn't know everything Mother Winter knows!

Odin's a "senior" god... but from another pantheon, and may not have been privy to what the Greek deities were up to.

etc.

I'm unclear that most mortal wizards would know the Archive's secrets... not even very-senior wizards.
But maybe the secret has gotten out, is not-so-secret anymore ... ?