Winter Lady Restrictions

[Mira]

This was in Small Favor although Summer Knight sets it up and foreshadows it.So Mab knew that, if given an opportunity, that Titania would take revenge.

 However Mab still made Harry her Emissary in the beginning of Summer Knight, before he even knew Titania or she him.  I don't think Mab foresaw the loyalty of Za'Gard, or that Harry could even gain their loyalty, because normally the Little Folk do not do that.  Common knowledge, check out the reaction from the White Council when Harry called Za'Gard into action in Battle Ground.

[Ed0517]

  Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie.  Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.
So why is that? 

Because they cling to the letter of the law and not the spirit. They can find little ways to screw you if they wish. You ask to be saved from pursuing Gruffs, Mab teleports you  out... and you are a Popsicle at Arctis Tor. Well, the Gruffs did not get you..... so she performed up to her end. They are smart, crafty, have thousands of years to accumulate a huge vault of dirty tricks. And the smarter they are... the more dangerous. 

[Ed0517]

Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve.  The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.

Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time. Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora. Those guys also chased various Carpenters... they are not emissaries.

[Ed0517]

Yes, Mab did name Harry Winter's Emissary in Summer Knight, however it wasn't until the end of the book that Aurora met her death because Harry set Toot and the rest of Za'Gard on her.  Before her death Titania had no real reason to attack him.  Titania was pissed at the Winter Court, true, because she blamed Mab for her Knight's murder.  I guess by extension you could say that since Harry was named Emissary and trying to get to the bottom of it on Mab's behalf she'd attack him too, but there was nothing personal about it.  Since Summer Knight? Yes, Titania has a very personal grudge against Harry and will attack him if the rules allow.

An Emissary seems to be an agent or arbiter - not necessarily linked to a cause. Luccio asks Harry which Emissary he might prefer, and he says the Archive. She is not in either camp. Harry has no Winter standing at that point. i don't think hiring one gets their loyalty. In fact, unless there is a rule we have not yet seen, at the start of Small Favor,  Titania could have hired Harry to find Marcone. Let the Denarians kidnap him, send Eldest Gruff to break in and whack him after Harry finds him, and the finger points to the kidnappers...

[morriswalters]

Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time. Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora. Those guys also chased various Carpenters... they are not emissaries.

The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense.

“I have chosen you to be my Emissary,” Mab said to me. “You will repay me a favor owed. You will find the Baron.

Not I will choose, but I have chosen.  Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's.

Butcher sets this up in Summer Knight by establishing that the Queens can't just attack any mortal they choose.  Which is why the chlorofiend can't hurt Murphy in Summer Knight.  He goes to a lot of trouble to establish this. For Titania to attack Harry he has to be connected to Summer in some fashion. That connection doesn't exist until Harry is named Emissary. It's explains the doughnut. When Harry gets back to Chicago the Emissary's work is finished and Harry is again safe.

This is actually her second run at Harry. She uses  her position as a Fate to choose for Harry to die in the alley behind Bock's Books in Dead Beat. When Marcone interferes Titania uses  this fact to attack him in Small Favor.

“This is another point of contention between you and Titania.”

“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.

I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”

“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”

This arc effectively ends when Titania gives up her quest for vengeance in Cold Days. It also has ramifications for Proven Guilty and helps explain why Mab is defending her borders.

[g33k]

The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense.  Not I will choose, but I have chosen.  Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's. 

It is perhaps another instance (like "outright lying" vs "mere deception") of where "Faerie Rules" are grossly unfair to mortals.

Mab chose Harry; evidently she "named" him as Emissary.  That made him a target for Summer.

Only later did she actually get his agreement to serve as Emissary.  I suspect faerie law has some sort of escape-clause (something Harry is/was ignorant of).
 

[g33k]

Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point... Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora.

It seems possible (indeed more than possible, but probable) that Mab declared Harry as her Emissary, and thus painted a Summer Target onto Harry.

Because we know the Queens cannot actually have a mortal directly killed, except via their Knights.

So Titania having the Gruffs attack is solid proof that Harry doesn't have mortals' normal workaday immunity.

... He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time.

Unless he is her Emissary, simply by fiat of the Queen of Air and Darkness (or maybe it's Harry's "3 services" bargain, plus her word).  He may not need to actually "accept" the job.

As noted, Titania's attack seems pretty solid evidence that Harry does indeed have "standing" as a Winter agent...

[vincentric]

This is just a simple matter of timing.

Mab learns of Marcone's kidnapping and names Harry as her Emissary, Titania immediately knows of the appointment because they are linked but Harry doesn't. So in the time before Mab tracks down Harry and notifies him of the favor being called, Titania sends the Gruffs on the hunt. And because Jim has to make Harry's life difficult, he has Mab take her sweet time  getting to Harry and informing him. 

[g33k]

This is just a simple matter of timing.

Mab learns of Marcone's kidnapping and names Harry as her Emissary, Titania immediately knows of the appointment because they are linked but Harry doesn't. So in the time before Mab tracks down Harry and notifies him of the favor being called, Titania sends the Gruffs on the hunt. And because Jim has to make Harry's life difficult, he has Mab take her sweet time  getting to Harry and informing him. 

There is something else going on, though... as I recall, the deal is that Mab is owed 3 services, but that Harry gets to choose.  He can Nope out from any given service.

Maybe ... hmmm, maybe Mab's choice is valid *until* he Nope's out?
(as usual, the mortal's ignorance isn't Mab's problem, and Harry is ignorant that Mab named him Emissary)

So she lets him get attacked.
THEN tells him he's her Emissary.
But she doesn't tell him he can still Nope out... and presumably (with Harry no longer her Emissary) that would stop the attacks.
Very fae, very letter-of-the-law deceptive.

I'd have to go back and re-read both the scene where Harry and Mab originally seal the "3 Services" bargain, and the scene where they negotiate this specific "save Marcone" service, to see if such an interpretation *actually* fits the specific agreements.
 

[morriswalters]

Which meant that I'd be an idiot not to check for razor blades and cyanide.

"I decide which requests I fulfill and which I don't?"

"Even so."

"And if I refuse a request, there will be no reprisals or punishments from you."

She tilted her head and blinked her eyes, slowly. "Agreed. You, not I, will choose which requests you fulfill."

There was one land mine I'd found, at least. "And no more selling my mortgage, either. Or whistling up the lackeys to chastise or harass me by proxy. This remains between the two of us."

She laughed, and it sounded as merry, clear, and lovely as bells—if someone pressed them against my teeth while they were still ringing. "As your godmother did. Fool me twice, shame on me, wizard? Agreed."

I put in bold the hook that Mab hung Harry on. The lie is, she won't punish Harry for not taking the job, but she gives him the job anyway knowing that Titania will attempt to kill him.

[LostInTime]

  Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie.  Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.

Of course that includes Molly now.

So why is that?  This is a wild theory that came to me while I was watching a special about King Tut..
Don't ask me why. But here it is, when you are bargaining with a Fae, it is like looking in a mirror.  We see our reflection, we think we are seeing truth, but the image is backwards..  So the Fae might indeed be telling the truth, but we lie to ourselvesas we hear it, or in another words it amounts to a lot of wishful thinking.  That's why it is so dangerous to bargain with the Fae...

This is oddly close to what Harry warned Maeve about. Once you can lie, you start lying to yourself.

[Ed0517]

The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense.Not I will choose, but I have chosen.  Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's.

She talks to Harry AFTER the attack at Michael's. The two Gruffs that attack at the start of Chapter 7, right after Mab leaves are described as

But they were bigger than the first attack team - bigger, stronger, and faster'

[Ed0517]

Because we know the Queens cannot actually have a mortal directly killed, except via their Knights.

So Titania having the Gruffs attack is solid proof that Harry doesn't have mortals' normal workaday immunity.


Unless he is her Emissary, simply by fiat of the Queen of Air and Darkness (or maybe it's Harry's "3 services" bargain, plus her word).  He may not need to actually "accept" the job.

As noted, Titania's attack seems pretty solid evidence that Harry does indeed have "standing" as a Winter agent...

But couldn't a Winter or Summer Queen thereby kill any vanilla human they wish by "Oh, I named him my Emissary in charge of watching for tidal waves in Nebraska. Just hadn't told him yet"

[morriswalters]

To use a vanilla mortal Mab would first have to create a bargain. This is established in Summer Knight when Mab forces Harry to stab himself. He tied himself to Winter by bargaining with Lea. Mab bought him from Lea and all else follows.

[Tinfoil hat]

The problem with any binding agreement is that it can mean something totally different to what you expect. Think of those young artists who sign away the rights to their works. Harry agreed to do 3 favours to Mab of his choose. Mab made it so harry had to choose to do it. Harry wasnt aware of how little choose he did have.