Winter Lady Restrictions

[g33k]

I think more pointedly what I think she has always said, " I cannot lie, but since you failed to includeallpossibilities of stars falling from the sky before and after in your question, the untruth is your problembecause I cannot lie.  Though one could argue she had all the information, but simply failed to include it, that is your problem because you never asked.

I think "shooting stars" are a reasonable take on "stars fall from the sky."   I expect this to feature in the BAT; it's a classic apocalyptic trope.

This will free Mab to lie, to betray her bargains, to fail in collecting what's due her, etc.

I'm unclear, however, if this is something Mab is using as a tactical/strategic thing (building up her rep for being such a stickler, then freeing herself from those limitations, the better to fight for Creation), or as a foretelling/warning -- that Nemfection will let her lie &c (as it did Maeve) and she foresees her own fall to Nemfection.

[morriswalters]

It is part and parcel with the Fae "letter of the law" & hair-splitting attitude.

Fae never flatly-deny that they deceive, or engage in subterfuge.  But they do not engage in that part of deception comprised of positively-affirming a known un-truth --  that (and only that) is a "lie" (as language is used by the fae).

Here is an interesting thought-experiment:  is there some language which doesn't have all these fine divisions of kinds-of-deception.  If there's only one word for all that stuff, do faeries still deny that they do it?  Do they then -- bound by their word -- not do any of it??!?
I don't think so; I think Mab is bound in this by Faerie Law.  Mab is certainly not sovereign over Titania!

I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet.  But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."

Any deception has at it's heart, a lie.  You can test this if you so choose.  It just isn't explicit. If it were simple we wouldn't need lawyers.

It's debatable if Titania is a peer or something else.  Certainly they are Mab's Accords, not Titania's. When Mab shut down all access to portals to the mortal world it included Summer. But my out on this is to look at Mab and Titania as two different sides of the same coin. With a side helping of a third we haven't seen.

For my internal canon Mab's statement means exactly what it says, she holds true to her word.

[Mira]

I'm unclear, however, if this is something Mab is using as a tactical/strategic thing (building up her rep for being such a stickler, then freeing herself from those limitations, the better to fight for Creation), or as a foretelling/warning -- that Nemfection will let her lie &c (as it did Maeve) and she foresees her own fall to Nemfection.

She does it all of the time!  Right when Harry or someone else says, "that's not what we bargained for!"  Her reply is always, "yes, it was, but you neglected to ask this or that or it doesn't mean this or that.."  "I cannot lie, if you didn't fully understand the deal, that is your problem."

[g33k]

She does it all of the time!  Right when Harry or someone else says, "that's not what we bargained for!"  Her reply is always, "yes, it was, but you neglected to ask this or that or it doesn't mean this or that.."  "I cannot lie, if you didn't fully understand the deal, that is your problem."

Note that Harry usually acknowledges that, in fact, he does know the rules of Fae bargaining; and, in fact, he did bargain poorly.

[Ed0517]

Any deception has at it's heart, a lie.  You can test this if you so choose.  It just isn't explicit. If it were simple we wouldn't need lawyers.

No. It has at its heart dishonesty. A lie is an out and out untruth. Misleading, even intentionally, is not lying. 

Let us pretend magical ability can be quantified simply. All people can be classified on a scale from 1 (normals) to 10 (the Merlin).

Harry says:

"The White Council has inducted all wizards of a power level 6 or greater."
"I am a level 7"

One would usually assume Harry is part of the WC.

Well, he WAS. But he is not NOW.

But what did he say was untrue?

He WAS inducted.
He IS a 7.

He did not say "All wizards of power level 6 or greater ARE part of the WC" THAT would be a lie, as he was kicked out.

If he said "The WC screens wizards, and any they find of a level 6 or up are inducted" we are led to believe all level 6 and up are, or have been, part of the WC.

But Elaine is a 6.

But she flunked her tests and they think she's a 4.  Harry knows this. But he tried to mislead you.

The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true. 

[Mira]

The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true. 

Exactly, and like a lawyer, the Fae know the law better than you do, thus it is dangerous to try and bargain with them.

[morriswalters]

No. It has at its heart dishonesty. A lie is an out and out untruth. Misleading, even intentionally, is not lying. 

Let us pretend magical ability can be quantified simply. All people can be classified on a scale from 1 (normals) to 10 (the Merlin).

Harry says:

"The White Council has inducted all wizards of a power level 6 or greater."
"I am a level 7"

One would usually assume Harry is part of the WC.

Well, he WAS. But he is not NOW.

But what did he say was untrue?

He WAS inducted.
He IS a 7.

He did not say "All wizards of power level 6 or greater ARE part of the WC" THAT would be a lie, as he was kicked out.

If he said "The WC screens wizards, and any they find of a level 6 or up are inducted" we are led to believe all level 6 and up are, or have been, part of the WC.

But Elaine is a 6.

But she flunked her tests and they think she's a 4.  Harry knows this. But he tried to mislead you.

The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true.

If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you  think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost.  This is a knowledge mismatch.  She knows Titania is out to murder him.  This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.

[Mira]

If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you  think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost.  This is a knowledge mismatch.  She knows Titania is out to murder him.  This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.

But it never passes her lips, ergo she isn't lying.  The Fae are not vanilla mortals, so they have a different point of view, so yeah, there are going to be communication problems.  Since Mab was human once, she does understand the human point of view, and uses it to her advantage when bargaining.

[LostInTime]

I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet.  But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."

I'll go you one better. We know WHEN Mab will lie. The last book is called Empty Night. A sky without stars.

[vincentric]

I'll go you one better. We know WHEN Mab will lie. The last book is called Empty Night. A sky without stars.

That could also be a premonition of her death. She could go to her grave truthful.

[Ed0517]

If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you  think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost.  This is a knowledge mismatch.  She knows Titania is out to murder him.  This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.

Harry knew he had no choice. Mab called in a Favor. Mab also TOLD him Summer's agents were after him. She TOLD him that SHE was not the danger he had been warned of - that someone ELSE (Gruffs) were coming.

Mab actually was pretty up front. She wanted essentially a PI. Talked of his talent for finding things. Called in her marker. She told him about Titania's agents - granted, his survival further's Mab's cause, as dead men find no kidnapees.  More than coerced, I'd say she used her leverage.   

Knowledge mismatch? Happens all the time. If we sit down to a game of chess, and FIDE rates you at 1200 and me at 2200, there is a knowledge mismatch. They basically say i can sit there and guzzle Jack Daniels from the bottle and still I am expected to win. Nothing dishonest about it.

[Mira]

  Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie.  Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.
So why is that?  This is a wild theory that came to me while I was watching a special about King Tut..
Don't ask me why. But here it is, when you are bargaining with a Fae, it is like looking in a mirror.  We see our reflection, we think we are seeing truth, but the image is backwards..  So the Fae might indeed be telling the truth, but we lie to ourselvesas we hear it, or in another words it amounts to a lot of wishful thinking.  That's why it is so dangerous to bargain with the Fae...

[morriswalters]

Anger flared in my chest and shoved my brain aside on its way to my mouth. “That wasn’t our deal,” I snapped. “Our bargain stipulated that I would choose which favors to repay and that you would not coerce me.”

“I have not coerced you, nor dispatched any agent of mine to do so,” Mab continued, as if the break in the conversation had never happened. “Nonetheless, if you wish to survive, you will serve me. I assure you that Summer’s agents will not rest until you are dead.”

Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve.  The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.

 

[Mira]

Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve.  The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.[/quote]


Yes, Mab did name Harry Winter's Emissary in Summer Knight, however it wasn't until the end of the book that Aurora met her death because Harry set Toot and the rest of Za'Gard on her.  Before her death Titania had no real reason to attack him.  Titania was pissed at the Winter Court, true, because she blamed Mab for her Knight's murder.  I guess by extension you could say that since Harry was named Emissary and trying to get to the bottom of it on Mab's behalf she'd attack him too, but there was nothing personal about it.  Since Summer Knight? Yes, Titania has a very personal grudge against Harry and will attack him if the rules allow.

 

[morriswalters]

This was in Small Favor although Summer Knight sets it up and foreshadows it.

Fear not for your little warriors. They were your weapon, and the only one accountable for their actions will be you. Take their steel with you, and it will be enough."

So Mab knew that, if given an opportunity, that Titania would take revenge.