Winter Lady Restrictions

[LostInTime]

But, there was still a favor given for a favor granted. Equal exchange. The price the Warden extracted was very steep, monetarily. But, even with all of the supernatural heavy hitters gathered in Chicago, the Warden was the only one that could bind and imprison Ethniu. Now she's a resource he could use. Harry effectively got paid twice for doing the same job. Plus, he holds the eye. A completely unequal bargain, but by fae rules and equal exchange.

[g33k]

They are vulnerable to mortal workings. That's the reason iron and steel are extra-fatal to them...

No, Iron is something specific.

Aluminum, for example, is more "worked" than iron (it takes more-advanced mortal tech to extract and process) but offers no extra damage.  Bronze is comparably worked to steel, but offers no extra damage.  Even a piece of wood -- if elaborately carved, properly seasoned, etc; all "mortal workings" -- should make the fae vulnerable, but does not.  Modern synthetics should be the worst of all... nylon, plastic, etc.  None are a problem for the fae.

... The reason why Molly can use high tech ...

  I think we have yet to see Jim's explanation for that.  It may be as you speculate here; or it may be something wholly-different.

... Even when Harry, as the Warden of Demonreach, bound Ethniu, he was then able to bind Lady Molly to pay for all the medical aid and funeral for Chicago. Because the Warden is not bound to Winter or a signatory of the Accords. By binding Ethniu, he put Winter in his debt. Ethniu was Winter and Accorded nation's enemy. Winter had to balance the scales with the Warden.

Christmas gifts are something else; that's part of Winter's obligation, liege to vassal (I wonder if Harry did anything for Toot?  And if not, is he in any sort of "trouble"?).

Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.

[Mira]

Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.

  Actually it was Mab and the members of the Accords, Harry didn't bind her into it.  Because they brought the battle to Chicago,Harry claimed the members of the Accords violated the "guest-right" rule.  Paying for medical and funeral bills was one of the things he demanded from the members of the Accords to compensate the people of Chicago for damages done to them and their city by the battle.  Harry also stressed that it was needed to restore balance. Mab backed him up on it, he is her vassal, the Winter Court followed through and Lady Molly presented him with the receipts for the medical and funeral bills paid, on Christmas Eve. 

[LostInTime]

Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.

Go back and read Battle Ground, the part where Molly is walking around in a fireman's coat after the battle. Molly even said that Harry has bound a queen right after he makes the demand.

[morriswalters]

Molly can use a phone because she is no longer human.  The Fae use technology constantly throughout the series. Mab has a yacht and a fleet of cars.  In Cold Days the Redcap rides a jet ski. Even Harry's effect  on technology is fading.  In Storm Front he walks the stairs to his office and now he rides elevators without thinking about it.

[Mira]

Go back and read Battle Ground, the part where Molly is walking around in a fireman's coat after the battle. Molly even said that Harry has bound a queen right after he makes the demand.

 That isn't the same as what he did to Ethinu though.  I think what Molly was referring to is promises made by a Fae.  The one giving the promise, is bound to honor it, but that isn't the same kind of binding that Harry used to send Ethinu to Demonreach.

[LostInTime]

He bound her as a fae is bound by equal exchange.

Just like he later bound all of the supernatural nations present under guest rite.

It's a different type since it required no battle of wills, but it's just as binding, within its limitations. We've never seen what happens to a fae that fails to fulfill a contract, but as we've seen with Harry in PT, there's a real, physical consequence. Molly described a unfulfilled contract owed her as an itch that she can't scratch.

[Mira]

He bound her as a fae is bound by equal exchange.

Just like he later bound all of the supernatural nations present under guest rite.

It's a different type since it required no battle of wills, but it's just as binding, within its limitations. We've never seen what happens to a fae that fails to fulfill a contract, but as we've seen with Harry in PT, there's a real, physical consequence. Molly described a unfulfilled contract owed her as an itch that she can't scratch.

When a Fae makes a promise in a bargain, he or she binds himself or herself to the promise.  As we saw in Summer Knight, Harry had bound himself to Lea for three promises in exchange for whatever she gave him to fight Justine.. However Mab was able to take over that contract, then promises were then moved to her.  In the case of Ethinu, Harry needed blood and had to say the right words to bind her, but she wasn't bound to Harry, she was bound to the prison.

[LostInTime]

When a Fae makes a promise in a bargain, he or she binds himself or herself to the promise.  As we saw in Summer Knight, Harry had bound himself to Lea for three promises in exchange for whatever she gave him to fight Justine.. However Mab was able to take over that contract, then promises were then moved to her.  In the case of Ethinu, Harry needed blood and had to say the right words to bind her, but she wasn't bound to Harry, she was bound to the prison.

Harry bound Ethniu. He beat her will to resist the binding. Not Demonreach. The prison is just where she is bound.

The Lady, Queen, and Mother mantles were already bound to behave under equal exchange. Harry did a favor for Winter, who were defending Chicago under their Accords, which the Fomor were attacking. Winter was obligated to return the favor. Harry demanded payment, they had no choice but to grant the favor or suffer the consequences, which we don't know what they would be. But, they would have to be serious.

When Mab acquired Harry's favor to Lea, we don't know how. Did Mab demand them as service from her vassal? Was it the price Mab extracted to cure Lea of Nemfection? Or did Mab trade a favor to Lea in exchange for Harry's favor? While Lea was incapacitated by being cured, Mab acted to fulfill her vassal's obligations. Just as when Harry was mostly dead Mab acted to fulfill his obligation to train Molly, transferring that obligation to Lea, who was already bound to fulfill Harry's obligation to train Molly as his Godmother.

Harry himself has a ton of obligations. And not just favors owed to others. He is owed favors and tends to forget them or brush them off. I'll be watching to see if he doesn't start taking those favors owed more seriously as the mantle takes hold.

[morriswalters]

Winter Law is whatever Mab says it is.  And it applies only when she wants it to and then only to the Fae and not the rest. She let the Hobs loose in the train station and I'm pretty sure that most of the dead wouldn't have known or ever heard of Mab. When Lea got uppity during Dead Beat Mab took the Atheme and tortured her until she saw the error of her ways. Not an equal exchange in my book. And that can't lie thing apparently only works on the Queens on some schedule that I can't discern. The rest of her court is composed of Fae keeping busy by knifing each other and plotting for personal gain. A plot is by definition a lie.

[Mira]

Just as when Harry was mostly dead Mab acted to fulfill his obligation to train Molly, transferring that obligation to Lea, who was already bound to fulfill Harry's obligation to train Molly as his Godmother.

  Not so much out of obligation, that merely provided an excuse.. Mab freely admits in Cold Days that because she felt Molly would make a good candidate to become Lady, [though she wanted her for Summer] she prepared her for the role, then in very Mab-like fashion laid the blame all on Harry.

[Ed0517]

Winter Law is whatever Mab says it is.  And it applies only when she wants it to and then only to the Fae and not the rest. She let the Hobs loose in the train station and I'm pretty sure that most of the dead wouldn't have known or ever heard of Mab. When Lea got uppity during Dead Beat Mab took the Atheme and tortured her until she saw the error of her ways. Not an equal exchange in my book. And that can't lie thing apparently only works on the Queens on some schedule that I can't discern. The rest of her court is composed of Fae keeping busy by knifing each other and plotting for personal gain. A plot is by definition a lie.

I tend to think there is some underpinnings of Winter Law beyond simply what Mab says it is. Faerie Law is not just Winter.  As noted, Mab kept obligations/favors, which seems to be a Faerie law beyond her realm. Guest rite is too - even the Erlking follows that. So does Summer. Summer rewarded Morgan and Harry with a boon each. And Harry sold his for a donut. And it worked.

And a plot is NOT a lie by definition. A plot does not need to involve a lie at all. It may. It may involve deception or subterfuge, which are NOT lies.  Wouldn't you call Titania giving Harry a pin with Fae GPS in it plotting? She did it for future use, as she did with Morgan. Where was the lie? She never SAID she could always track it.  She told Morgan they could not track HIM. They didn't. They tracked the pin. 

And promises can be twisted. You can give someone something they asked for in a way they did not want. If, say, Rudolph was pursued now by a supernatural being, and ran into Harry and asked Harry to get him to safety - well if Harry tossed his ass in a Demonreach cell, that's pretty safe now, isn't it?  Lea considered leaving Harry a hound to keep him safe. i doubt that's what his mom would have wanted.

[morriswalters]

For the purposes of the lore Butcher taps into the formality we use to carry on relations in a conflict thus guest right and all that follows. About lying, from my perspective it can be summarized by Mab saying that the Stars will fall from the sky before Mab breaks a promise. It is her will that the Fae don't lie.  But of course they do. Deception and subterfuge are lies. They just aren't obvious lies. But I don't insist that you travel down this road with me I just offer it as a counterpoint.

[g33k]

... the Fae don't lie.  But of course they do. Deception and subterfuge are lies. They just aren't obvious lies. But I don't insist that you travel down this road with me I just offer it as a counterpoint.

It is part and parcel with the Fae "letter of the law" & hair-splitting attitude.

Fae never flatly-deny that they deceive, or engage in subterfuge.  But they do not engage in that part of deception comprised of positively-affirming a known un-truth --  that (and only that) is a "lie" (as language is used by the fae).

Here is an interesting thought-experiment:  is there some language which doesn't have all these fine divisions of kinds-of-deception.  If there's only one word for all that stuff, do faeries still deny that they do it?  Do they then -- bound by their word -- not do any of it??!?

... It is [Mab's] will that the Fae don't lie...

I don't think so; I think Mab is bound in this by Faerie Law.  Mab is certainly not sovereign over Titania!

... About lying, from my perspective it can be summarized by Mab saying that the Stars will fall from the sky before Mab breaks a promise ...

I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet.  But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
 

[Mira]

I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet.  But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
 

I think more pointedly what I think she has always said, " I cannot lie, but since you failed to includeallpossibilities of stars falling from the sky before and after in your question, the untruth is your problembecause I cannot lie.  Though one could argue she had all the information, but simply failed to include it, that is your problem because you never asked.