Winter Lady Restrictions

[g33k]

If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.

We don't know precisely what Nemfection can and cannot do.

My theory is that it does in fact eliminate that limit -- the Lady'sMantle won't even "notice" a Nemfected Lady have sex... become pregnant... even give birth.

It subverts all those things.

[ElusivePan]

We don't know precisely what Nemfection can and cannot do.

My theory is that it does in fact eliminate that limit -- the Lady'sMantle won't even "notice" a Nemfected Lady have sex... become pregnant... even give birth.

It subverts all those things.

I agree we don't know the total extent of Nemesis's power.We can, however, make some guesses. We know that when Aurora was infected, Nemesis did not destroy Aurora's mantle, but rather attempted to take Summer's knight mantle out of play by petrifying Lily. I believe if Nemesis could've destroyed Aurora's mantle, that particular plot wouldn't have been necessary.

My guess is that while Nemesis can infect the holder of a mantle and influence his or her actions, it can not actually directly manipulate the mantle to such a point. If it was within Nemesis's power to allow Aurora to lay with a man and become pregnant, it would've done so, because it would have achieved its goal at that point.

[g33k]

I agree we don't know the total extent of Nemesis's power.We can, however, make some guesses. We know that when Aurora was infected, Nemesis did not destroy Aurora's mantle, but rather attempted to take Summer's knight mantle out of play by petrifying Lily. I believe if Nemesis could've destroyed Aurora's mantle, that particular plot wouldn't have been necessary.

My guess is that while Nemesis can infect the holder of a mantle and influence his or her actions, it can not actually directly manipulate the mantle to such a point. If it was within Nemesis's power to allow Aurora to lay with a man and become pregnant, it would've done so, because it would have achieved its goal at that point.

I agree that the control usually isn't complete.
Cat Sith was "completely" controlled most of the time, but sometimes could break through, for a bit.
Justine I think was completely controlled.

Because Winter embraces ambition & treachery, and Lea was in a "Frenemies" relationship with Mab, she and Nemesis had some clear alignments that let Nemesis lead Lea unwittingly into non-Winter & Law-violating paths.

Similarly, Aurora just wanted to end the cycles of pain and suffering.  Her Summery compassion gave Nemesis channels of sympathy to play upon.

HOWEVER:  if a Mantle detected its Lady getting "down & dirty" -- no longer a Maiden -- I think it would depart the (ex-)Lady for the nearest vessel; or to the Queen or even the Mother, for safekeeping & to be deployed later.

[worthnew]

Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."

i read that sentence in cold case, and bells and light bulbs were going off in my head. there's so much info here. but i just didn't see anyone commenting on this.

[LostInTime]

The obligation against lying is Winter Law not particular to the Mantle, so Nemesis suborned Winter Law, breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm. The same happened with the Mantleless Lea.

This fits in with my theory that Nameless became subject to Winter Law solely in order to destroy it, (he is a Demi-god of Discord, and a crooked Lawyer) his aiding Nemesis just one of the aspects of his attack. Without Winter Law then Winter would lose its coordination, massively undermining the defence of the Gates. Oh and Nameless is Cowl of course.

Slight correction. The prohibition against lying, or, more correctly, the requirement to tell the truth at all times is a fae requirement. Like the vulnerability to cold iron, all fae have this. Not just those under Winter Law or those that are part of Accorded nations.

[Mira]

Slight correction. The prohibition against lying, or, more correctly, the requirement to tell the truth at all times is a fae requirement. Like the vulnerability to cold iron, all fae have this. Not just those under Winter Law or those that are part of Accorded nations.

 However the prohibition against lying isn't exactly true, that's why one should never bargain with the Fae unless they know exactly what they are doing and even then it is dangerous.  Harry has learned this lesson the hard way and most likely will screw up again, but at least he knows what he is up against.  In other words, Mab has made an art of it.  She will tell you that she cannot lie, tell you the absolute truth, as far as what she is telling you..  The danger is in what she isn't telling you.
So when Harry or some else complains that isn't what they bargained for, Mab's answer is that it was, she can't lie, but you forgot to ask about a,b, or c.. So she wasn't lying, it is on you to see all the angles, not her.

[g33k]

However the prohibition against lying isn't exactly true...

No; it is.

It is exactly true; no more, no less.

It's us poor mortal -- and moral -- schmucks (who think "deceiving" is also a form of lying) who get in trouble.  Our erroneous beliefs, preconceptions, limited information, &c &c &c...  These give the fae (particularly the powerful and well-informed Mab) a HUGE advantage in terms of bargains and trickery.
 

[Mira]

No; it is.

It is exactly true; no more, no less.

It's us poor mortal -- and moral -- schmucks (who think "deceiving" is also a form of lying) who get in trouble.  Our erroneous beliefs, preconceptions, limited information, &c &c &c...  These give the fae (particularly the powerful and well-informed Mab) a HUGE advantage in terms of bargains and trickery.

  I guess it depends on how you define what lying is..  Or rather understand that one can be dishonest without lying.  A good rule perhaps is do not trust someone you are dealing with when they open with, "I cannot tell a lie," ergo trust me.

[morriswalters]

i read that sentence in cold case, and bells and light bulbs were going off in my head. there's so much info here. but i just didn't see anyone commenting on this.

They'll get to it eventually when they come up for air.

The term lie is nebulous at best.  As far as I can tell Mab can't tell a straight up untruth, saying for instance the moon is made of cream cheese. She can certainly tell lies of omission.  The example that come to mind is when she takes Harry's blasting rod and his memories of ever having it in the first place.

[vincentric]

Deception can take many forms, lying is just the most blatant.

[Mira]

Deception can take many forms, lying is just the most blatant.

  Perhaps, but that is the point isn't it? You don't have to lie to be dishonest, which Mab and most Fae are.  The lie of omission is perhaps the worst, because every word said can be the truth, but if an important part is left out, it is not true.  A lie never passes her lips so Mab and other Fae can say they cannot tell a lie, all the while, and we've seen her do it, Mab leaves things out when she bargains all the time.. Ergo if you bargain with her and company, be careful, because you might not be getting what you think you are getting.  In their mind, since the actual lie never crosses their lips, they do not lie, though they do it all of the time by omission.  Mab even admits to it freely with a reminder that she cannot lie, then smugly explains to the poor mortal that they neglected to ask a or b so got screwed in the deal.

[LostInTime]

The fae can also tell the truth from a certain point of view. Mab could say that Hitler was a great hero. Despite the commonly held point of view that he was a monster. To an ardent Nazi he was a hero. Truth from a certain point of view.

Fae restrictions in general are, guest rite, tell the truth, equal exchange, iron vulnerability (really a vulnerability to mortal workings), bargains, oaths or exchanges, asking three times is a binding, summoning rituals (binding if you know the fae's true name).

Winter Law seems to (so far) be restricted to not killing mortals uninvolved with the fae, and accepting an enemy's surrender. In return for good treatment that enemy must act as your vassal until they are ransomed back to their lord.

[g33k]

... equal exchange ...

I think this one isn't reliable.  As noted above, the fae delight in making "bargains" where the mortal gets far less/worse than they expected out of the deal... and often, pay a far worse price.

... iron vulnerability (really a vulnerability to mortal workings) ...

Similarly, I don't think the fae are generally vulnerable to "mortal workings" ... Mab as "Ms. Sommerset" had no problem magic'ing her way though Harry's locked door (presumably the knob&c were brass).  Mab rode in a high-tech elevator at Marcone's building, at the beginning of Skin Game.  Lady Molly appears to use a cellphone.

And I suspect the Svartalves -- and maybe a few others -- do not share the general Faerie iron-vulnerability; so you can't count on it.

[LostInTime]

They are vulnerable to mortal workings. That's the reason iron and steel are extra-fatal to them. Even so far as paralyzing them when immortal fae are penetrated by it. Way back in Death Masks (?) Harry dumped reality powder of Lea, which was mostly made of depleted uranium powder, and it burned the crap out of her.

The reason why Molly can use high tech is that the mantle has either suspended her mortal magic, transformed it into fae magic, or somehow overriden her Murphyonic field. There is precedent. Harry and Molly used to sit inside a circle to have their magic contained if they wanted to watch a movie with their friends or family. Perhaps the mantle does the same thing, traps her magic inside her body somehow and applies a skin of the mantle's magic over her.

Equal exchange is part of balancing the scales. E.G. Butters removing the rebar from Mab's neck during the Battle of Chicago. He was not bound to do so by contract or treaty. Once she was back on her feet she offered him a favor to balance their scales. Even when Harry, as the Warden of Demonreach, bound Ethniu, he was then able to bind Lady Molly to pay for all the medical aid and funeral for Chicago. Because the Warden is not bound to Winter or a signatory of the Accords. By binding Ethniu, he put Winter in his debt. Ethniu was Winter and Accorded nation's enemy. Winter had to balance the scales with the Warden.

Mab passing through Harry's threshold was a matter of guest rite. Since she was not offering him any harm, she was behaving within guest rite and allowed to enter without permission. Though, as we saw in The Law from Harry's perspective, most of her power was probably left outside.

The Svartalves made Harry's upgraded ring in his workshop. Which was copper, silver and iron, combined into one ring. He had to pay a premium for them to work with iron. I thought he'd lost it in Changes, but it was still there in PT. But, per WOJ, not everything native to the Never Never is vulnerable to iron. (At least not vulnerable beyond the usual, like being cut by a steel sword)

[vincentric]

I mostly agree except the exchange of Favors doesn't have to be equal. If you were to use a Favor from the fae on something trivial(say a doughnut) it would be a settled debt. As long as each delivers on what's asked, all is well.