Winter Lady Restrictions

[JTass]

Just had a thought and figured it was worth posting. Apologies if the subject has been posted previously.

In Brief Cases Mab implies that the Winter Lady is forced to be chaste because becoming pregnant would disqualify her eligibility for the position. From that premise one could assume that non-vaginal and/or non-penetrative sexual activity would be outside of the Winter Law prohibition.

Thoughts?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Winter Lady was chased  by Carlos, and unfortunately for him her caught her,

[ElusivePan]

I don't think we know for sure yet, but I sort of doubt it'll allow much of that sort of activity.

It being a magic think make me believe that the requirements would be metaphysical rather than physical—after all, if its purpose was mere pregnancy prevention, it would be much more efficient to make her womb inaccessible or unsuitable than to fight off anyone who wants to give her a go.

My guess is that the mantle is keeping her an actual maiden, i.e. young, nubile, desirable, and unused.

[JTass]

I don't think we know for sure yet, but I sort of doubt it'll allow much of that sort of activity.

It being a magic think make me believe that the requirements would be metaphysical rather than physical—after all, if its purpose was mere pregnancy prevention, it would be much more efficient to make her womb inaccessible or unsuitable than to fight off anyone who wants to give her a go.

My guess is that the mantle is keeping her an actual maiden, i.e. young, nubile, desirable, and unused.

I dunno about that... it was implied but never explicitly stated that Jenny Greenteeth was Maeve's lover. That could have been Maeve's way of sidestepping the chastity prohibition imposed by Winter Law.

[g33k]

I dunno about that... it was implied but never openly stated that Jenny Greenteeth was Maeve's lover. That could have been Maeve's way of sidestepping the chastity prohibition imposed by Winter Law.

I think that was just a standard-issue temptation, a mimeshow for effect (IIRC, there's good research to the effect that the MFF menage a trois is (one of the, and maybe absolutely the) most-common male fantasies).  Maeve was just working on Harry (and Billy).

I'm pretty sure Nemfection freed Maeve from all those restrictions, though... She could lie overtly, she could have intercourse with a man, etc.

[ElusivePan]

I'm pretty sure Nemfection freed Maeve from all those restrictions, though... She could lie overtly, she could have intercourse with a man, etc.

If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The obligation against lying is Winter Law not particular to the Mantle, so Nemesis suborned Winter Law, breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm. The same happened with the Mantleless Lea.

This fits in with my theory that Nameless became subject to Winter Law solely in order to destroy it, (he is a Demi-god of Discord, and a crooked Lawyer) his aiding Nemesis just one of the aspects of his attack. Without Winter Law then Winter would lose its coordination, massively undermining the defence of the Gates. Oh and Nameless is Cowl of course.

[morriswalters]

Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old. Mab kept Sarissa alive as part of a bargain(and because she wanted a spare).  But certainly Nemesis would not have allowed Maeve to destroy the Mantle as long as he/she thought Maeve might become Mab.

[g33k]

... If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.

... breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm...

Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old...

Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out?  Can anyone cite or quote for me?

[morriswalters]

“I . . . have a form of congenital dementia,” she said. “I watched what it did to my older sister and . . .” She shuddered. “Doctors can’t help me. Mab can.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 71). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Sarissa could have been lying, but then again Maeve was crazy as hell. The citation on the composer is in the WOJ database on Paranet.com.

Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.
2015 DragonCon

How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

So given this Starborn business figure Maeve and Sarissa to be at least 600 years old.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out?  Can anyone cite or quote for me?

In Peace Talks it was established that forcibly removing the Mantle from Molly(via a Circle) would have left what remained not Molly. Suborning The Mantle would have had the same effect with Maeve, forcing it away from her.

[Ed0517]

Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old. Mab kept Sarissa alive as part of a bargain(and because she wanted a spare).  But certainly Nemesis would not have allowed Maeve to destroy the Mantle as long as he/she thought Maeve might become Mab.

Do we have a lifespan for the Fae though? They may live hundreds of years. Lea doesn't appear to be aging fast

[Conspiracy Theorist]

They live until they die, usually by violence, which by Winter standards is listed as “Natural Causes”

A few Fae are genuinely immortal,  the Queens, Kringle, The Erl King, most likely Lea. Physical or magical attack can’t kill them, only dissipate them for a time. I would add to this list Puck the Wildfae who is shown to be at Leas power level, and likely Eldest Gruff from Summer, who seems to be Titania’s second and probably more powerful than Sarissa.

I think that is a matter of power with the Lady’s just powerful enough to be Immortal. Nameless is probably under the Lady’s power level (which supports the Cowl theory, the Word would have made him immortal(here’s a thought Cowl achieves immortality on Harry’s birthday, only to be immediately killed by Harry)) and able to break free from Mab.

[ElusivePan]

Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out?  Can anyone cite or quote for me?

Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."

[JTass]

Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."

This is the quote that inspired my initial question of this post. Mab doesn't just imply, but overtly states that the underlying source of the Winter Lady's enforced chastity is that the maiden cannot become a mother. If that's all of the factors involved, then there are a myriad of sexual outlets that have no chance of pregnancy that are outside of Winter Law's prohibition (e.g., the implied lesbian relationship between Maeve and Jenny Greenteeth).