Author Topic: In defense of the WC  (Read 26159 times)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2022, 01:03:55 PM »
He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.

but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.

He did throw down with Eb and he not only survived it but got Thomas and Lara away safely. More than a draw. Molly created the homuncus for Harry, but that was more of a time issue.

Offline Mira

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2022, 02:52:54 PM »
He did throw down with Eb and he not only survived it but got Thomas and Lara away safely. More than a draw. Molly created the homuncus for Harry, but that was more of a time issue.

 Harry also knew that by asking a favor of Molly she will call him on it at some point.  However it was a price he was willing to pay to save Thomas if he could..

Offline Mira

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2022, 02:58:34 PM »
He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.

but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.

Whether or not Molly made the ring is beside the point, Harry knew it was the best way to defeat Eb, because in a physical stand off the odds were in Eb's favor.  Also it isn't that Harry couldn't fashion the ring, he just didn't have the time or the materials at hand, but Winter Lady had both at her finger tips.  And yes, Eb could make crushed raspberries out of Harry, he knew that and we the readers knew that, so Harry found another way.

Offline Fcrate

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2022, 07:36:14 PM »
Harry also knew that by asking a favor of Molly she will call him on it at some point.  However it was a price he was willing to pay to save Thomas if he could..
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2022, 09:16:38 PM »
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.

She can command him for Winter Duty. A favour may of course fall outside of his duty to Winter. For example something in relation to her family.

Offline Fcrate

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2022, 09:45:59 PM »
She can command him for Winter Duty. A favour may of course fall outside of his duty to Winter. For example something in relation to her family.
Which she can have anytime because he's her friend.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2022, 11:28:42 PM »
Which she can have anytime because he's her friend.

Exactly, though if she ever becomes Queen, we can pretty much guess what it would be and what it would cost Harry.

But for example “Hope has gone missing, find her Harry” would fall into the favour category. Her missing sister is none of Winters Business but it is something Harry is superlative at. She may though have used it up already “Harry, tell my parents I am the Winter Lady” unaware they knew all along.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2022, 01:09:27 AM »
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.
He now owes her a debt that he can't welsh on, more explicitly she could make him become her lover, or murder and so on.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2022, 05:33:03 AM »
Exactly, though if she ever becomes Queen, we can pretty much guess what it would be and what it would cost Harry.

She won't do that. She wants them to give themselves, not her take it.  Taking it is a power play, and not Molly. Too much Molly left.

Offline forumghost

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2022, 06:00:30 AM »
As far as Molly's facour goes, I think it's more limely to come into play when she needs him to obey a command she usually couldn't give- like, say, one that contradicts an order Mab gave him.

Offline g33k

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2022, 06:10:11 AM »
Debatably also a 3rd was Harry vs. Ariana Ortega. Technically not proper in that the Red King ordered a disadvantageous choice of method to punish her usurpation scheme, instead of having her choose as the challenged party, but still more structured than the one in WN in that it was limited to one means instead of everything-goes.

I don't think Harry's challenge was issued under the Accords; the White Council has no real interest in the little girl, so he has no "standing" (legal cause) to challenge.  Neither has the Winter Court.

He was following the Ramps' own internal rules... which have some overlaps with the Unseelie Accords, but aren't entirely the same.  There was a bit of insight on this during the "conversation" between the Eebs and Harry, while the others were fighting the Ik at Rudy's house.  The bloodthirsty Ramps /absolutely/ recognize blood-right for challenge!

(edit: somehow mis-quoted; apologies to @SnarkKnight for the misattribution)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 04:59:04 PM by g33k »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2022, 08:29:27 AM »
As far as Molly's facour goes, I think it's more limely to come into play when she needs him to obey a command she usually couldn't give- like, say, one that contradicts an order Mab gave him.

No Winter Law would prevent that, both for Harry and Molly UNLESS Molly were to give additional detail to the original order overlooked by Mab initially and she wouldn’t need to use a favour for that. For example Mab orders Harry to find a particular mortal for her, and kill them. Molly modifies it “but you are to use only mortal methods, so as not to draw supernatural attention” in an effort to slow Harry down and give him time to figure out a way around the order e.g. he and Butters stop the mortals heart through mortal means, Butters declares him dead and restarts his heart, Harry passes the living mortal to Mab, pleading his case.

This is the whole point of The Law (aside from introducing Nameless/Cowl, and possibly Max). Those subject to Winter Law  ARE  subject to it, BUT loopholes exist which Harry can exploit, and that provides narrative points for Jim, especially for future short stories, a new type of self-contained puzzle for Harry to solve where he wins, but leaves Mab deeply annoyed with him for outwitting her by using Winter Law against her for his own ends.

Offline Con

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2022, 11:28:37 AM »
Well I mean to be fair Harry played the debt card on Molly first. Harry demanded through his duty to Winter that Winter help the citizens of Chicago due to his actions in the Battle and locking up Ethniu. It allowed Molly to intercede for Winter during Christmas despite triggering and interfering with Kringle's territory. Plus Molly did save Harry's ass when Harry almost publicly told Mab to go screw herself for trying to force Harry into a Marriage with Lara Wraith.

Point being that Harry and Molly are settling into the whole debt dance where they both come out on top and maneuver for the best thing for most people.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2022, 12:57:47 PM »
 (Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
She won't do that. She wants them to give themselves, not her take it.  Taking it is a power play, and not Molly. Too much Molly left.
Quote
“Harry. I need you to be absolutely sure. Once a bargain is done, there’s no going back. And I will hold you to it.” Her expression flickered, for just a second suddenly looking much less sure. “I don’t get a choice about that.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
My statement isn't about what Molly will do, it's a statement about what Molly could do if she chose to.  And Winter Law would keep Harry from saying no.

Offline Fcrate

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2022, 02:59:37 PM »
All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير