In defense of the WC

[Ed0517]

It’s the company car all over again, attack Harry’s home Mab will ignore, but an attack on a Winter Garrison she will not. Whoever (Merlin) tried to bomb the Castle will have to answer to her at some point and that gives Harry as Winter Knight the capacity to challenge to a duel whoever organised it (Merlin) with the full power of Winter behind him. As a Vassal of Winter on Winter Business Harry would be guaranteed unmolested access to the White Council and specifically the Merlin to issue the challenge. It’s the only way he could get one on one with the Merlin and we know from the Gatekeeper this is going to happen in the future.

If Harry has any sense he would ask Eldest Gruff to be his second.

An attack on a Winter Embassy is an attack on Mab and will not be tolerated.

Eldest gruff is Summer. Titania likely blocks it. Scary Sidhe Lady is Winter. Mab is likely fine with Lea going, and she outclasses anything the WC can muster, even Eb.

Two spit-in-the-face seconds choices:

1) If the duel is considered Winter-WC : Former WC apprentice Molly

2) If the duel is considered personal: Grandpa Eb. Also takes away Langtry's best battle mage.

The one that spooks everyone on both sides? Rashid.

(Rashid likely turns it down. Uriel turns it down, but even if he didn't, they would know there would be no treachery. Play by the rules and you're safe. Vadderung would turn it down, then show up with a horn of mead and bowl of popcorn to watch. Possibly with the Erlking and Gruff. )   

[Ed0517]

And yet he fought Eb to a draw in Battle Ground who is supposed to be the best Battle Wizard. Langtry is considered to be the best defensive wizard, but you don’t win a duel on defence. For example Langtry erects a shield no attack can get through, Harry could use soul Fire to enhance that shield so that Oxygen doesn’t get through and then wait for Langtry to pass out.

Langtry at this point has to consider Harry a greater political threat than Eb, he isn’t an asset, and he is the more immediate threat.

To be fair, I think Eb was holding something back. He wanted to win without hurting Harry badly or killing him. Langtry will not pass on that so readily.

[Ed0517]

But even if she does have to deal more with Carlos... remember, she'll be teaching now.  Just like Harry did, Elaine will find her powers developing more quickly & more deeply.  She'll be getting more and more able to deceive Carlos.

Elaine may not gain as much as Harry did in reviewing her lessons. She may have learned the little things the FIRST time, while Harry was making things work by throwing power at it until it happened.  She developed skill, while he compensated with raw power.

Example - 2 kids as golfers. Boy is hitting his drives with his arms and upper body, girl is using her hips and legs, turning the torso. Boy outhits girl, but only by a little.  A few years later, they both go to a golf school to have their skills examined and deconstructed. Girl is fine tuned, gets a little more distance, but is otherwise similar to before. Boy is now getting HIS hip turn into it, and his legs, and gains 30 yards to his drive. Re-examining her game had minor points to fix, but he had missed large things where he replaced skill with raw power. He now develops skill, and the gap between the two widens.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

To be fair, I think Eb was holding something back. He wanted to win without hurting Harry badly or killing him. Langtry will not pass on that so readily.

But Harry goaded him into doing exactly that.

[forumghost]

I mean be real here people, harry didn't beat eb -not really- he tricked him into fighting a hologram made by the winter lady while he got out of dodge.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

But that’s the argument that an old wizard will beat a young wizard in a nutshell, except Harry reversed the script.

It’s telling that Harry deflected Eb’s boulder instead of trying to stop it and Eb is annoyed that Harry finally listened to him NOW. Harry is a much much wilier opponent than he should be for a wizard of his age, it’s not just combat experience, it’s preparation and don’t forget Harry had only his staff, no shield bracelet, blasting rod or force rings. We know as of The Law he has all of these back, he is preparing and that includes taking on the WC and the Merlin when HE is ready.

He is almost certainly developing countermeasures for a confrontation with the WC, I note that he examined Carlos favourite attack carefully during BG, he probably has figured a way to nullify it as Carlos is likely to be used against him.

[Tinfoil hat]

Harry cant beat Ebenezer, hes John Cena 2008-2012, Brock Lesnar 2014 and Roman Reigns 2021 combined. While the Merlin is Undertaker at WrestleMania pre brock Lesnar.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry cant beat Ebenezer, hes John Cena 2008-2012, Brock Lesnar 2014 and Roman Reigns 2021 combined. While the Merlin is Undertaker at WrestleMania pre brock Lesnar.

Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.

Harry wins every time now over Eb.

The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.

[vincentric]

Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.

Harry wins every time now over Eb.

The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.

Harry "died" when one of Eb's built in auto defenses triggered. He now knows he can survive long enough to run away but that's a long way from winning a straight-up duel.

Don't get me wrong. I believe Harry is a top 10 wizard but the top 3, EB, Langtry and Rashiid will take him down.

[Snark Knight]

We've seen 2 Accorded challenges, IIRC.  Ortega vs. Harry, and Harry+Carlos vs Vitto+Maddy.  The first one was much more formal, with time between challenge & duel, 2nds to be found, a neutral arbiter (who got to define the methods of the duel!).  The 2nd one had none of that; a brief pause while the challenged armed themselves, then an "anything goes" fight (no neutral 3rd party, etc).

Debatably also a 3rd was Harry vs. Ariana Ortega. Technically not proper in that the Red King ordered a disadvantageous choice of method to punish her usurpation scheme, instead of having her choose as the challenged party, but still more structured than the one in WN in that it was limited to one means instead of everything-goes.

[Ed0517]

Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.

Harry wins every time now over Eb.

The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.

Harry didn't beat Eb - he stalemated an Eb who was holding back. Eb showed if he went all out he could win. This can embolden Harry, but he has to recognize the limits Eb put on himself.  We saw the best Eb could do will kill Harry.

I'm not 100% sure Langtry takes Harry down. He probably does, but Langtry is a defense specialist. I don't think Harry has a chance of taking him down either (Barring maybe a Soulfire attack Langtry didn't know about). This is possibly like when Nik offered Harry a coin, and when Harry asked if he was going to let him walk, Nik said "I doubt I could stop you" as in "You can't hurt me. I know that. The question is if I have the firepower to get you". Eb has shown he can if he has to. I wonder sometimes if Eb is really the best battle wizard. We know little of Rashid....

Carlos has technical ability that may (or may not - Harry tends to run himself down) exceed Harry's but I don't think he can take Harry.  A middleweight contender gets pounded by a journeyman heavyweight. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry didn't beat Eb - he stalemated an Eb who was holding back. Eb showed if he went all out he could win. This can embolden Harry, but he has to recognize the limits Eb put on himself.  We saw the best Eb could do will kill Harry.

I'm not 100% sure Langtry takes Harry down. He probably does, but Langtry is a defense specialist. I don't think Harry has a chance of taking him down either (Barring maybe a Soulfire attack Langtry didn't know about). This is possibly like when Nik offered Harry a coin, and when Harry asked if he was going to let him walk, Nik said "I doubt I could stop you" as in "You can't hurt me. I know that. The question is if I have the firepower to get you". Eb has shown he can if he has to. I wonder sometimes if Eb is really the best battle wizard. We know little of Rashid....

Carlos has technical ability that may (or may not - Harry tends to run himself down) exceed Harry's but I don't think he can take Harry.  A middleweight contender gets pounded by a journeyman heavyweight.

Harry beat Eb in Eb’s head, as Granny Weatherwax would call it “Headology”same way Harry beat Ethnui, undermined her confidence in her power at exactly the right time. Harry now has a scary reputation, and that affects practitioners going against him. In that respect he is like the Gatekeeper, and whilst EB and the Merlin are his superiors in power, he could take both by playing on their confidence in their abilities. I doubt though he could do it with the Gatekeeper, suspect could teach Granny a thing or two about Headology.

For example taking on Ancient Mai Harry can undermine her confidence by using his worthiness to own a Foo Dog. With Martha Liberty a demonstration of Soul Fire would likely do it.

With the Merlin it’s his political reputation as the key to his confidence, with Eb, his anger and guilt.

[Mira]

I mean be real here people, harry didn't beat eb -not really- he tricked him into fighting a hologram made by the winter lady while he got out of dodge.

He won, he knew he didn't stand a chance going one on one with the Blackstaff.  He also knew that Eb wasn't himself emotionally and was vulnerable. He didn't want to hurt his grandfather and in truth his grandfather didn't want to hurt or kill his grandson.  So Harry coolly came up with a way to win with no one getting hurt.. Harry beat Eb with his brain, it isn't always about who has the most kaboom.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

He won, he knew he didn't stand a chance going one on one with the Blackstaff.  He also knew that Eb wasn't himself emotionally and was vulnerable. He didn't want to hurt his grandfather and in truth his grandfather didn't want to hurt or kill his grandson.  So Harry coolly came up with a way to win with no one getting hurt.. Harry beat Eb with his brain, it isn't always about who has the most kaboom.

Exactly, Harry constantly finds himself outmatched in power or experience, but has confidence in his ability to think on his feet, which is being increasing supplemented with forward planning. Harry knows he is going to face off against Carlos and will be prepared for his favourite attack. Even with the Blackstaff Carlos would be an easy easy victory ( use Mother Winters walking stick against her knight? Harry would end up owning the Blackstaff).

The Merlin as I said could be beaten by undermining by him politically, with the Truth about his schemes in relation to Harry, being made public during battle, forcing admissions. The Merlin is a defensive practitioner, so Harry would have the time.

[forumghost]

He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.

but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.