In defense of the WC

[Tinfoil hat]

1st time poster
This topic has been discussed before. But
In the past the wc has been criticized for its head off first ask qns never policy in regard to the warlocks. But think about this, most members of the wc are a couple hundred years old or older. Most of them either saw kemmler rise or have masters, mentors or friends who were there. I think its possible that kemmler had a trial and was placed under the doom. Instead of turning a new leaf, he became well him. The council members who voted for leniency probably carry a lot of quilt over what he eventually became.
Then comes harry Dresden. I mean come on. All the older wizards seem to be able to tell how strong someone is, and how strong they will come. Justin was trained by the council's vampire expert, justin was probably not a push over and harry beat him at 16. Given that morgan thought Dresden was a destroyer, I think the older generations have an idea or suspect what harry was meant to be. Everyone looks at harry and rightly sees a stronger, better version of kemmler who in a couple of centuries will be as strong as Ebenezer.

[vincentric]

The White Council's take here would be far less troubling if they had a large scale program and policy for searching out and training youngsters with talent. As it is, they only find blossoming talent when they trip over it. And the Council is too concentrated geographically in Europe and Asia to do much good for the rest of the world.

Harry can become an example of the direction the Council needs to take by using his Wyldfae pact to form a network with the Paranet for searching out young talent and reporting the finds to set of regional Council offices. It could even become one of the main jobs of the Fae Courts after the BAT to assist humanity's recruiting in the role of protecting the Outer Gates.

[Con]

Well done on your first post. Good topic to break out with.

So yeah generally accepted theory is everyone of the older members of the Council has Kemmler trauma. Morgan in particular.

If you read Luccio's short story theirs some more hitns there. Kemmler formed the Thule Soceity. Which was an actual fascist occult secret soceity. Part of him building up World War 1.

There's also a section in Paranet Papers that covers Simon Pietrovich and his role leading up to and including the Russian Revolution. Black Court Purge included but also that Pietrovich almost got taken out by the Blackstaff despite several warnings.

[morriswalters]

Drakul speaking to Harry in the fight at the graveyard.

“I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren’t telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 118). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

With regards Harry this implies that The White Council entered into the thing with their eyes wide open. It also seems clear that they are afraid of what they have made.

[Mira]

Drakul speaking to Harry in the fight at the graveyard.With regards Harry this implies that The White Council entered into the thing with their eyes wide open. It also seems clear that they are afraid of what they have made.

  Sorta, I think it more like they hadn't planned on Lord Raith taking out Margaret, nor Malcolm being murdered.  Then they really dropped the ball by not insisting that Eb track his grandson down and raise him instead of letting him languish in a orphanage and foster homes for the next five years.. Though yeah, since the fact that Margaret was Eb's daughter and therefore Harry his grandson was sort of kept from everyone.. Which begs the question of, why?  Further totally losing track of young Harry so that the now warlock, Justin could adopt him and raise him up for his own purposes.  So while the Council may have applied pressure to have Harry conceived, they sure screwed up once he was born.  It smells of too many secrets and half truths being kept from those who really needed to know.

[g33k]

...
In the past the wc has been criticized for its head off first ask qns never policy in regard to the warlocks. But think about this, most members of the wc are a couple hundred years old or older. Most of them either saw kemmler rise or have masters, mentors or friends who were there. I think its possible that kemmler had a trial and was placed under the doom. Instead of turning a new leaf, he became well him. The council members who voted for leniency probably carry a lot of quilt over what he eventually became.
Then comes harry Dresden. I mean come on. All the older wizards seem to be able to tell how strong someone is, and how strong they will come. Justin was trained by the council's vampire expert, justin was probably not a push over and harry beat him at 16. Given that morgan thought Dresden was a destroyer, I think the older generations have an idea or suspect what harry was meant to be. Everyone looks at harry and rightly sees a stronger, better version of kemmler who in a couple of centuries will be as strong as Ebenezer.

The WC has to kill the warlocks after a certain point.  They become irredeemable.  Even Dresden himself -- one of the sharpest critics of the policy -- admits this.

The question for the WC is -- has Harry Dresden passed that point?  Does Dresden himself "need killing"

Because of their fear -- their "Kemmler PTSD," if you will -- many of the WC are either unable to decide rationally -- seeing Harry through Kemmler-tinted glasses; or have (rationally, if rather cold-bloodedly) decided "better safe than sorry" -- that the downside risks of a Warlock Dresden simply outweigh the risk that they might needlessly kill someone theoretically-redeemable... or even someone more-or-less innocent!

Someone here on the Paranet, some years (and several DF novels) ago, wrote up a Warden-POV "threat assessment" file on Harry Dresden; it was reasonably amusing.  It was also reasonably... well... reasonable, as an in-world rationale for why Dresden is "highly suspicious" at very best.

As has been said:  what the WC really needs (in terms of "the warlock problem") is a huge initiative aimed at finding young talents early, before they have a chance to "go bad," and training them up properly (i.e. with an understanding of what the problems ARE, and how to AVOID them).  I've been advocating for the idea that the Paranet to step up, in this role.  I think we're seeing some foreshadowing that the WC is doomed to fall, and I think the Paranet may be poised to step into the role of the premier wizarding organization; a concerted effort to find/educate young talents could be a great demonstration of how they'r better-suited than the WC is.  I like @vincentric's notion that Harry could leverage his faerie connections here, also.

[Mira]

As has been said:  what the WC really needs (in terms of "the warlock problem") is a huge initiative aimed at finding young talents early, before they have a chance to "go bad," and training them up properly (i.e. with an understanding of what the problems ARE, and how to AVOID them).  I've been advocating for the idea that the Paranet to step up, in this role.  I think we're seeing some foreshadowing that the WC is doomed to fall, and I think the Paranet may be poised to step into the role of the premier wizarding organization; a concerted effort to find/educate young talents could be a great demonstration of how they'r better-suited than the WC is.  I like @vincentric's notion that Harry could leverage his faerie connections here, also.

I believe the Merlin's excuse for that not being done to Harry back in Proven Guilty after the Korean Kid got the chop was 1] there wasn't enough qualified wizards to take on apprentices, 2] that there were even fewer willing to take the risk of taking on a perhaps redeemable kid only to fail and die with him/her under the edit of the Doom.  So he and the Council felt that a zero tolerance policy was safest for all.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The White Council take death as the first and only option for Warlocks, they seem incapable of putting in the resources to locate young wizards early and their policy of masquerade means that there is no public recognition of the problem.

The WC sets itself up as the authority in this area, yet clearly is incapable of exercising that authority in a prompt and effective manner.

It would be interesting to see whether Harry’s own policy of openness would allow for early identification of Warlocks before the death penalty is used. The Paranet means that talented families can at least recognise a Wizard level talent early on.

[g33k]

I believe the Merlin's excuse for that not being done to Harry back in Proven Guilty after the Korean Kid got the chop was 1] there wasn't enough qualified wizards to take on apprentices, 2] that there were even fewer willing to take the risk of taking on a perhaps redeemable kid only to fail and die with him/her under the edit of the Doom.  So he and the Council felt that a zero tolerance policy was safest for all.

To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.

The WC's official position is, they don't seek out young proto-Talents before they get into trouble...  Let's look at the downstream consequences, hmm?  What's the throughline, here?

With the impulses of young hormones, with the impulse-control of youth, with the judgment of youth, with the maturity of youth  how many of these burgeoning talents -- really -- aren't going to "get into trouble?"

Particularly in the "developed" countries, where most people will deny the magic, and generally assign "crazy" and similar labels.

So then the newly-emerged talents go Warlock.

And get killed.

I mean ... just look at Molly.
She had a wonderful, loving family-upbringing.
She had about the best moral guidance that mortal parents can provide.
And, she went Warlock.

If a kid like Molly (of all people!) can't avoid it... who's likely to?  Anyone?  Calling it like I see it here, and it looks to me like a big NOPE.  (Or rather:  only with a huge, HUGE dose of dumb luck!)

===

The net result therefore looks an awful lot like the Whamp plot to "cull" Talent out of humanity.  The Merlin/WC plan is actually better than the Whamp plan:  the wizards are filtering for the strongest, most effective talents!  (weak/ineffectual magic being unlikely to rise to the level of Warden action)
 

[Tinfoil hat]

I think the issue is that the WC model is no longer ideal for the modern world. But on the other hand taking every little talent to be part of the council may be a bad idea.
Harry was the youngest member of the council and the council went to war for him against the reds (not really).
The wardens like Carlos complain about having little say in the council despite doing most of the fighting.

[Mira]

To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, it is perhaps a good reason why Margaret rebelled against the Council so hard.  The Council in it's principles is good, but it for the most part hasn't adjusted to the modern world.  The result is a secretive and paranoid group that is deaf to any new idea or thought of  change.

[morriswalters]

To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.

The WC's official position is, they don't seek out young proto-Talents before they get into trouble...  Let's look at the downstream consequences, hmm?  What's the throughline, here?

With the impulses of young hormones, with the impulse-control of youth, with the judgment of youth, with the maturity of youth  how many of these burgeoning talents -- really -- aren't going to "get into trouble?"

Particularly in the "developed" countries, where most people will deny the magic, and generally assign "crazy" and similar labels.

So then the newly-emerged talents go Warlock.

And get killed.

I mean ... just look at Molly.
She had a wonderful, loving family-upbringing.
She had about the best moral guidance that mortal parents can provide.
And, she went Warlock.

If a kid like Molly (of all people!) can't avoid it... who's likely to?  Anyone?  Calling it like I see it here, and it looks to me like a big NOPE.  (Or rather:  only with a huge, HUGE dose of dumb luck!)

===

The net result therefore looks an awful lot like the Whamp plot to "cull" Talent out of humanity.  The Merlin/WC plan is actually better than the Whamp plan:  the wizards are filtering for the strongest, most effective talents!  (weak/ineffectual magic being unlikely to rise to the level of Warden action)

Well maybe The Merlin is stupid or maybe he is corrupt, or some combination thereof. I like corrupt but your mileage may vary.

In the real world it works exactly the way it seems to work in the Files.  We don't "see" the homeless or mentally ill, until they kill someone, or they become so numerous that they are no longer hidden. Then we weep an wail and "do" absolutely nothing.  Seems to describe the White Council in a nutshell. I wonder if Butcher  does  this consciously? He's used the trope a couple of times. And he uses it to describe Charity  Carpenter and motivate her, in her interactions with Molly.

[Mira]

In the real world it works exactly the way it seems to work in the Files.  We don't "see" the homeless or mentally ill, until they kill someone, or they become so numerous that they are no longer hidden. Then we weep an wail and "do" absolutely nothing.  Seems to describe the White Council in a nutshell. I wonder if Butcher  does  this consciously? He's used the trope a couple of times. And he uses it to describe Charity  Carpenter and motivate her, in her interactions with Molly.

  Oh I believe it is deliberate, it helps to give his fantasy a bit of a different twist.  There is no secret about it from the beginning the main theme has been of Harry Dresden, a wizard openly advertising the fact and practicing magic in modern Chicago.  One foot in both worlds fighting both the supernatural and the problems plaguing our times.

[Fcrate]

I'm wondering if Harry can start something like a magical campus in Chicago. He should easily get 18 Council level apprentices from Chicago alone. More if word spread.
The Council is elitist, and that's the problem. They don't have enough wizards to take on apprentices so they wait until they turn warlock and kill them? Seriously? Technically speaking you only need a minor talent to stop someone from going warlock. You just need to make sure they observe the laws. Doesn't take a wizard, and there is a lot more minor talents than there are prospective apprentices /warlocks. The prospectives can then take weekly or twice weekly lessons with Harry, college style.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I have posited the same.

The Paranet know what the WC have done to Harry despite what Harry did for the WC, they are not going to pass potential Wizards to the WC they are going to pass them to Harry. That’s most of North America.

Harry is also going to be a magnet for disaffected and abused apprentices from the WC from across the world, and wobetide the Wizard who so abuses his young apprentice that they reach Harry. They will be so forced to swear on their power that they will not be able to do anything.That’s a smattering of apprentices across the world.

Harry can’t do one on one teaching in these circumstances but could engage others, Elaine and Molly and Mort (for Ectomancy directly, but no reason he can’t channel say Morgan for evocation and Mort could stand to broaden his education), Butters for magical theory and comparative supernatural biology. Guest Lecturers like River Shoulders or Kringle. If he can save Chandler in Mirror Mirror, then he has another teacher who would be delighted to teach. Harry doesn’t have the WC prejudice against non-human practitioners.