Author Topic: In defense of the WC  (Read 26045 times)

Offline Ed0517

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2022, 08:21:05 AM »
Saw an interesting post on one of the fb groups that part of the reason why the WC members hate harry is the favouritism shown to him.
Can't remember the og post and poster. So i will
Just list some of the thinks i think may cause people to hate him.

1) instead of killing him, eb served him becoz he mentored his mother. 2) he advertises himself in the media 3) he started a war with the red council (sure it wasn't his fault but theh don't know that) 4 he's anti social. Harry doesn't attend council meetings unless forced. 5) he doesn't get that hes guven special treatment. How many young wizards are in contact with SC members to the extent harry is

I'd say to assess at least some of these we have to know more of what the average WC knows.

1) Yes, he killed Justin, but I see at least 3 (may be more) ways to look at it:

a) He killed. He's a warlock. Die!

b) WTF? A KID took out a WARDEN? How? What are we dealing with? (see the reaction of the wardens on Demonreach when they are asked to arrest him)

c) That warden summoned a freaking WALKER, an OUTSIDER. HE deserved to die. Putting him with the Blackstaff, we can kill him if we need to, but it may be he was ill-treated by the WC as well. Plus, said Warden was doing mind control on the presumed missing and presumed dead Elaine. I'm thinking the WC has not connected the Elaine with Justin to the Elaine in the phone book. Why would Justin enthrall a small timer?

2) I doubt most know or care. They will assume he is considered a charlatan.

3) I think he was poorly thought of even before that. If it was just this ... his opinion might rise when he WON the war and eradicated the Reds.

4) I think attendance of more than a few are spotty at best. The main council chamber holds, what, a third of them? When they  were filling Simon's SC spot and calling roll, more than a couple of the older ones, the more powerful ones you would expect to be there, knowing their name will arise, are missing. Wizards go their own way.

5) A few do get SC contact. Ramirez. Chandler. Also, remember Harry is a regional commander for the Wardens, he's not some scrub. Connection to Eb, well, that's his old master, so it doesn't count. Also started before Eb was SC. Injun Joe is Eb's buddy. He doesn't see Joe much without Eb there. He doesn't see Mai, or Martha Liberty. No indication he ever saw Simon, or Christos until the Battle of Chicago - he had to ask who he was. The Merlin is always as the Merlin, at court. He did see him when the manhunt was on - but he's also a PI - it looks like a professional consult. And the Gatekeeper... I think they all RESPECT the Gatekeeper, but even the Merlin seems to defer to him at times.... I think they let him do as he pleases, don't try to figure out why, and NEVER ask.

Offline g33k

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #136 on: October 24, 2022, 04:25:12 PM »
... Plus, said Warden was doing mind control on the presumed missing and presumed dead Elaine. I'm thinking the WC has not connected the Elaine with Justin to the Elaine in the phone book ...

I don't think the WC knows Justin had any other 'prentice than Harry; they only learned of Harry himself after Justin died.

Elaine's presence there was utterly unknown.

Remember -- Justin had turned heavily into Black magic:  mind-control, Outsider-summoning, and we don't know what else.  I don't think he had *ANY* contact with the WC, because it would have been too easy for "sensitives" among them to notice this sort of thing.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2022, 08:38:29 PM »
Part of me thinks that that Justin could have been working with Peabody (and others) while working with the SC. Realizing that Justin had gone to the darkside may explain why the SC hates/ is afraid of Harry. They left their WMD with the wrong guy who knows what protocols Justin left in Harry.

Offline g33k

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #138 on: November 16, 2022, 03:10:38 PM »
Part of me thinks that that Justin could have been working with Peabody (and others) while working with the SC. Realizing that Justin had gone to the darkside may explain why the SC hates/ is afraid of Harry. They left their WMD with the wrong guy who knows what protocols Justin left in Harry.
I think it likely that Justin was "Black Council," yes.

But they rooted-out all of Peabody's work; I presume they checked Harry, and would have been satisfied there were no "protocols" in place.

I disagree that the White Council was onboard with the "Starborn Plan," however.  They're too staid & conservative, that plan is too extreme/apocalyptic.

Eb would likely have been aware if Justin were assigned Harry's tutelage, and insisted on taking on the role himself.  Morgan moved quickly to get Harry, but Justin moved faster, and Morgan was unable to track them... again, this speaks to it NOT being a White Council move.

I strongly suspect that (at least) one individual Senior Council member was involved and/or sympathetic to the plan; but acted in secret, as (an) independent wizard(s); NOT as agent(s) of the White Council.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 04:42:22 PM by g33k »

Offline Ed0517

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2022, 01:59:31 AM »
I don't think the WC knows Justin had any other 'prentice than Harry; they only learned of Harry himself after Justin died.

Elaine's presence there was utterly unknown.

Remember -- Justin had turned heavily into Black magic:  mind-control, Outsider-summoning, and we don't know what else.  I don't think he had *ANY* contact with the WC, because it would have been too easy for "sensitives" among them to notice this sort of thing.

I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies.....  hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.

Quote
But they rooted-out all of Peabody's work; I presume they checked Harry, and would have been satisfied there were no "protocols" in place.


Not sure on that. Harry likely does not give permission, and going in unapproved is a naughty.

Offline g33k

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #140 on: November 18, 2022, 11:32:46 PM »
I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies.....  hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.

I think Justin went pretty deep into hiding / flying under the radar.
Eb & Morgan (at least) knew about Harry... but I think they lost him when Malcolm Dresden died, and Justin swooped in.

Justin had been a well-known Warden.  But I think he was laying plans, doing some groundwork; I think he had retired from being an active Warden, and largely from active White Council activities.

He had created a secret "lair" for himself, a bolt-hole where he would take Harry (and Elaine), and live entirely without WhiteCouncil oversight or awareness.

Offline Mira

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #141 on: November 21, 2022, 02:01:55 PM »
I think Justin went pretty deep into hiding / flying under the radar.
Eb & Morgan (at least) knew about Harry... but I think they lost him when Malcolm Dresden died, and Justin swooped in.

Justin had been a well-known Warden.  But I think he was laying plans, doing some groundwork; I think he had retired from being an active Warden, and largely from active White Council activities.

He had created a secret "lair" for himself, a bolt-hole where he would take Harry (and Elaine), and live entirely without WhiteCouncil oversight or awareness.

Or he was hiding in plain site.  In other words when he retired from being a Warden, no one knew he was already going dark.  The biggest example of that is when they took down Kemmler, he stole for himself the skull that ultimately became Bob.  The skull that was supposed to be destroyed and the entity within it that had a lot of dark information. Yet, nobody ever suspected that it was one of their own Wardens that took him.  Because of his immaculate reputation Justin could quietly live, making his plans, and even attend White Council meetings and no one would be the wiser. While the White Council can be paranoid, they also lack imagination..

Offline morriswalters

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2022, 06:18:10 PM »
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea.  When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.

Offline Mira

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2022, 07:32:13 PM »
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea.  When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.

  Yes, but a warlock like Justin with the help of Kemmler Bob might also have shielded both Harry and Elaine from White Council Warden notice..  Also unless Morgan had a sample of Harry's hair,etc, which is doubtful, he wouldn't have been able to track him.

Offline vincentric

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #144 on: November 27, 2022, 02:53:52 PM »
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea.  When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.

Say rather that Harry was being shielded by Lea. Because of that Morgan didn't find him or Justin or Elaine because that isn't who he was looking for.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #145 on: November 27, 2022, 03:37:56 PM »
Morgan said Justin got to Harry before he did.  Either Harry or Justin could have been the target of the search.  Find one and find the other.

Offline vincentric

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #146 on: November 28, 2022, 04:17:32 AM »
Morgan was searching for Harry though. He didn't search for Justin that we know of.

Offline Mira

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2022, 07:18:05 PM »
Morgan was searching for Harry though. He didn't search for Justin that we know of.

Agreed.  Morgan had no way of knowing that Justin had Harry, if he had, Harry wouldn't have spent the next five years as Justin's adopted son.  One interesting point I think, how soon after Malcolm's death did Morgan begin to look for Harry? Who ever took young Harry to social services must have made sure that there were no physical traces of the child left behind that could be magically tracked.  Hmmm.. All makes sense when you think of it for a murder/kidnapping conspiracy... Only that too would have been overlooked because who'd suspect the state of kidnapping?

Offline Ed0517

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #148 on: November 28, 2022, 11:18:43 PM »
Agreed.  Morgan had no way of knowing that Justin had Harry, if he had, Harry wouldn't have spent the next five years as Justin's adopted son.  One interesting point I think, how soon after Malcolm's death did Morgan begin to look for Harry? Who ever took young Harry to social services must have made sure that there were no physical traces of the child left behind that could be magically tracked.  Hmmm.. All makes sense when you think of it for a murder/kidnapping conspiracy... Only that too would have been overlooked because who'd suspect the state of kidnapping?

Malcolm was a traveling magician. He could well have passed in a motel room on the road, with who knows how many people in and out of it. Frequently cleanings, Harry might have been in there one night. How many people may have been in there after Malcolm died before Morgan learned of it?

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: In defense of the WC
« Reply #149 on: December 14, 2022, 07:33:53 PM »
I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies.....  hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.
 

Not sure on that. Harry likely does not give permission, and going in unapproved is a naughty.
I dont think they was a need to check harry cause he never came to the HQ and when he did he never signed a thing. Hence Lucio.
Was having a talk with a friend about the Merlin. Other than the mist fiend and the ward tag team with the gatekeeper has the Merlin done any magic on screen/ on page