Getting to the Island

[morriswalters]

and Hecate is not a Fate. That's Clothos, Atropos, and Lachesis

In Skin Game in the vault Ascher sees the statues and names them as Hecate.  Harry sees them and names them as the six Faerie Queens. However in Cold Days when he summons Mother Winter he uses Atropos.  Me thinks that Butcher is talking out of both sides of his mouth. In Summer Knight he shows us Atropos shears which she uses to cut the thread of the unraveling. And to put the icing on this mess of a cake, Butcher foreshadows the attack on Marcone in Small Favor by implying that Titania is one on the Fates.  Carry on.

@Conspiracy Theorist

It would be nice if you could support the idea that the attack on Arctis Tor was a prison breakout. The text doesn't really seem to. No single Denarian could challenge Mab at her Wellspring. That is established by Mab's performance at the battle of Chicago.  And as Butcher points out in a WOJ Mab could have had everyone in Winter at the fortress on the jump, just as Harry hitting the Wellspring with fire did. Also from Cold Days if Mab wanted a portal at her Wellspring she could arrange it, since she locked down Faerie and created a Portal just for Harry with no apparent effort.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It wasn’t just a single Denarian at Arctis Tor it was a party including a Denarian which Following The Law may have included help from Nameless to the extent he could do this.

[morriswalters]

Well if Butcher wants to rewrite canon he can.  However that still doesn't indicate that the purpose was to rescue Lea. This is one of Butcher's masterpieces or messes depending on how you feel about it. Incoming WOJ.

Another mild correction:  who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived?  At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress–but you didn’t see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.   Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn’t infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The purpose was ostensibly not to rescue Lea but Nemesis within Lea. There may have been other purposes, but I am not sure Mab didn’t allow it to a point to flush out Nameless, which wouldn’t affect any hypothetical link to Demonreach as the Warden was allowing this, as with  Hades Vault.

We see the story from Harry’s view and he is an unreliable narrator who only sees part of the picture, Mab definitely sees more, but we see nothing from her POV. Skin Game was a revelation because we got to see more of her larger plan and PT/BG just confirmed this, providing a modus operandi, we have to therefore reconsider what Harry has seen in the past in light of that. It’s not a recon more of a secret history, Jim has only shown us what he wanted to show us, but certain things have been there all along and not added subsequently.

Arctis Tor may be very different to what Harry thought it was. The Law indicates that. Harry and his party may have been manipulated to provide a valid reason to watching third parties including Nameless to recall Winters forces. The Phobophages were after all part of Winter and subject to Mab’s control. Part may also to give Harry certain information i.e. Hellfire being used to pass onto Nick, if you think about Winters involvement in SF.

Mab is not arbitrary and does nothing without a reason. She plans well ahead and thinks nothing of exposing a flank to draw an enemy out or using mortals like Molly or Harry in her schemes, even if it might be fatal to them. She will sacrifice her own children for her schemes.

[Yuillegan]

Putting my moderator hat on here *places dusty, worn, old hat wearily on head*. If we cannot treat each other respectfully here, there is really no point of having these boards. There are multiple other forums such as FB and Reddit that allow for Jim Butcher's Dresden Files to be discussed. These boards are the oldest of the various forums, and were set up to discuss and show love and appreciation for Jim Butcher's works. And while there have been dark days in the past long before my time (although I have seen my share) where the forum became a furious battle ground of ideas that often resulted in toxic arguments and multiple (sometimes permanent) bans, by and large this forum has been a place of joy and excitement on the whole.

But it's fairly quiet these days as many OG members have left, and many others have migrated to newer forums. We are no longer the destination of the majority of Jim Butcher fans.

All we have is each other. There are not many moderators available anymore and of those remaining ALL of us are time poor. So it is up to all of you to uphold the values of this place. Call out bad behaviors and hold each other to account. Myself and the other mods will do our best to help when we can, but ultimately it is up to all of you to make this place somewhere you want to be. By and large I'd say the community does a pretty good job of that.

So I will be crystal clear. Absolutely no trolling, baiting or bullying. Otherwise the Blackstaff comes out and bans will follow. Stick to the forum precepts and rules.

[g33k]

... It really boils down to the fact that somethings exists on the NeverNever side that Harry has been told will Kill Him Horribly ...

It's worth noting, however:  while we know the Nevernever side of any given place has some sorts of similarities to the mundane side (and therefore will be (at minimum) an ominous and dangerous place ...

Recall the source of that info:  Nicodemus & Anduriel.  They won't lie when lying can weaken their position (i.e. the lie is likely to be discovered, and thus discredit them); but if they see more advantage than disadvantage, deception is the lingua franca of Hell.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.

Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.

[Mira]

Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.

Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.

Mab is only Harry's worst nightmare because of his fear of her, he should be afraid, but not all of his fear is rational.  Nic is playing off that fear.  Nor logically does Mab want to take away Harry's self control so he'd become Winter Knight, basically that was her problem with Slate, no self control. She is patient, she knows that eventually something will come up and Harry will run out of options, which it eventually did in Changes.  Oh and for my money, a lie is a lie and sometimes a so called "half-truth" is the worst lie of all.

[g33k]

In Skin Game in the vault Ascher sees the statues and names them as Hecate ...

That may have been Ascher's ID; or it may have been what Lasciel wanted her so say to Harry.

[morriswalters]

That may have been Ascher's ID; or it may have been what Lasciel wanted her so say to Harry.

It's all speculative until Butcher gets to the point. It could be read as each person seeing what they expect to see. I have no idea.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Michael comments one of them looks like Molly…..

[Ed0517]

Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.

Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.

Mab doesn't really want to take away all of Harry's self control. A thinking Knight is more dangerous than a bloodthirsty sadistic idiot. And (as I actually said just yesterday to a Maid of Honor who absolutely ROASTED the groom in her toast and claimed she held back) a rapier is more elegant than a bludgeon. The Fae like to style a bit.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

What Harry knew of Mab at the time terrified him, what he now knows still terrifies him but in a different way.

[g33k]

Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare ...

I think the Denarians are an even-worse nightmare for him, honestly.