Author Topic: A Thought About The Items From Hades  (Read 6155 times)

Offline Eguzky

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A Thought About The Items From Hades
« on: July 07, 2022, 03:15:21 AM »
Idea: Christ's Crucifixion Was A Result Of, Or Action Against, The Outsiders

We know that items pertaining to Christ's crucifixion are back in play as weapons against the Outsiders. And belief holds that Christ gave his life to absolve humanity of their sins, right? Well, what if we changed 'absolve humanity of sin' to 'protect humanity from Outsiders'?
It would fit that God's son gave his life to protect humanity and, in so doing, created items that can be used explicitly to fight the Outsiders he was striking back against.
Heck, I would not be surprised if Judas was working with the Outsiders to kill Christ, possibly in a ritual aimed at God, but Christ turned it around and made a willing sacrifice to protect the world. I mean, why else would items of faith have power against Outsiders when there's not a whole lot of people believing they would?

Offline seanham

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2022, 03:30:20 PM »
I like your idea; however, why would Christ wait until year 33 to sacrifice himself? Wouldn't it have made more since to sacrifice himself at the start of creation? Maybe the Outsiders were about to break through, and Christ's sacrifice was to reinforce the barrier? I had a WAG a while back where I proposed that the five artifacts could summon Christ himself.

On the other hand, I am not sure Jim would change the reason for Jesus's crucifixion/life. It is such an important moment to so many people that it could be dangerous for his career/book sales to mess too much with it.

Offline g33k

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2022, 06:18:57 PM »
I thought Jim had hinted that Christ himself was a Starborn.  n.b. this doesn't have to be "instead of" the Biblical account of the Son of Man / Son of God, but sits very-nicely alongside it, as a hidden ancillary -- by being Starborn, He linked Himself into the Starborn cycles, enabling other Starborn to wield His artifacts & relics against the Outsiders.

Christianity has a very long and deep tradition -- older in fact than the Church itself! -- of esoteric / occult / Gnostic / mystery-cult thinking and practice.  We see just such an organization in the Ordo Malleus, to which Forthill himself belongs.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 06:38:19 PM by g33k »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2022, 06:34:59 PM »
My theory? Christ got Nemfected because the White God just had to have a human avatar and the Crucifixion was to cure him, the crown to subdue, the grail to purify, the placard to protect,  the spear to alter the probability of success and the Shroud the revive the avatar.

The nails we know were thee Angels. This leads to a question.

What happened to the holy claw hammer, and is it secretly in the ownership of Michael Carpenter? It would explain so much.

I think the artefacts are actually former Gods or Archangels, placed in that form by the White God.

Offline Basil

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2022, 04:47:38 PM »
The Shroud, the Placard, the Spear, the Grail, the Sword and the Coins are not Outsider specific artifacts.  They just happen to be effective against everything -- as Dresden notes about the Spear.  He says, it was more real than everything else, it was not just a spear -- it was a spear against everything.  Nicodemus intended to use the pseudo-Shroud to start a plague when we first met him.  I think it more likely that they are all-purpose items. 

As for JC being a Star Born -- I dunno, it doesn't seem like the timing works out, every 666 years or so from 4 BC means Star Born cycles at 662AD, 1328AD and 1994AD.  Dresden (and Butcher) are GenX'ers to the core and so the timing is off by several decades, regardless of whether you use 7BC, 4BC or 1AD for the birth of JC.

As for JC being Nemfected, that seems unlikely.  JC is a person of the Trinity, so the HS and the Father would also be Nemfected. Whether you personally believe in God, clearly that being is "real" for purposes of the Dresdenverse and according to the Nicene Creed -- the Father and the Son are of the same substance:

Quote
We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    consubstantial to the father
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
        he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
        he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
        and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
        he suffered death and was buried.
        On the third day he rose again
            in accordance with the Scriptures;
        he ascended into heaven
            and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
        and his kingdom will have no end.
 
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
        and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Personally, I do not believe that Angels are contained within the Placard, Shroud, Grail or Spear.  There are Angels in the Swords, just as there are Demons in the Coins.  I don't think an imprisoned (willing or otherwise) being is required to make a potent artifact.  I'm fairly sure that no Demon resides in Marcone's butterfly knife, which he successfully used on Ethniue, it worked because Marcone has Infernal sponsorship.  (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?). 

Offline g33k

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2022, 09:05:35 PM »
...  (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).

Because she's a couple of orders of magnitude tougher than anyone he's ever faced?
Remember:  she punted Mab.

Shagnasty was more outraged at Harry's presumptuousness, than injured by Harry using Soulfire.  LTW, on his own, forced Shagnasty to retreat.  Jim has stated that the *entire* Senior Council, with maximum preparation/readiness, would most-likely lose if they fought Mab.

Offline Mira

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2022, 01:42:16 AM »
Because she's a couple of orders of magnitude tougher than anyone he's ever faced?
Remember:  she punted Mab.

Shagnasty was more outraged at Harry's presumptuousness, than injured by Harry using Soulfire.  LTW, on his own, forced Shagnasty to retreat.  Jim has stated that the *entire* Senior Council, with maximum preparation/readiness, would most-likely lose if they fought Mab.

Also Harry understands Soulfire better now.  Remember his eureka moment about it in Cold Days when he used it to stop Mother Winter from killing him.  He knows now that it is more than just something to enhance spells etc.. So because of his understanding I doubt he would have used it on Ethinu.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 05:15:37 PM by Mira »

Offline Avernite

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2022, 11:09:06 PM »
Well, what if we changed 'absolve humanity of sin' to 'protect humanity from Outsiders'?
How about a combo, and the sin in question was calling up Outsiders?

Offline seanham

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2022, 12:40:39 AM »
(Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).

I have had the same thought. I wonder if Harry used so much Soul Fire when creating his ice wall to slow down the Jotuns that he didn't want to risk using anymore? Or after losing Murphy he couldn't access it temporarily. Remember Bob said that the soul grows back with laughter and joy (or something like that), maybe Harry didn't have any joy in him when facing Ethniue so he couldn't use it? Like when Harry couldn't create the pocket chief of sunshine in SK because of what happened to Susan.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2022, 03:55:39 AM »
The Shroud, the Placard, the Spear, the Grail, the Sword and the Coins are not Outsider specific artifacts.  They just happen to be effective against everything -- as Dresden notes about the Spear.  He says, it was more real than everything else, it was not just a spear -- it was a spear against everything.  Nicodemus intended to use the pseudo-Shroud to start a plague when we first met him.  I think it more likely that they are all-purpose items. 

As for JC being a Star Born -- I dunno, it doesn't seem like the timing works out, every 666 years or so from 4 BC means Star Born cycles at 662AD, 1328AD and 1994AD.  Dresden (and Butcher) are GenX'ers to the core and so the timing is off by several decades, regardless of whether you use 7BC, 4BC or 1AD for the birth of JC.

As for JC being Nemfected, that seems unlikely.  JC is a person of the Trinity, so the HS and the Father would also be Nemfected. Whether you personally believe in God, clearly that being is "real" for purposes of the Dresdenverse and according to the Nicene Creed -- the Father and the Son are of the same substance:

Personally, I do not believe that Angels are contained within the Placard, Shroud, Grail or Spear.  There are Angels in the Swords, just as there are Demons in the Coins.  I don't think an imprisoned (willing or otherwise) being is required to make a potent artifact.  I'm fairly sure that no Demon resides in Marcone's butterfly knife, which he successfully used on Ethniue, it worked because Marcone has Infernal sponsorship.  (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).

33 BC. Crucified in 1AD. Cycle fits perfectly. Bit out of date for modern thinking, but it's been bandied.


Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 08:50:42 AM »
I have had the same thought. I wonder if Harry used so much Soul Fire when creating his ice wall to slow down the Jotuns that he didn't want to risk using anymore? Or after losing Murphy he couldn't access it temporarily. Remember Bob said that the soul grows back with laughter and joy (or something like that), maybe Harry didn't have any joy in him when facing Ethniue so he couldn't use it? Like when Harry couldn't create the pocket chief of sunshine in SK because of what happened to Susan.

Because the binding was the only shot in his arsenal which would work, and that is a matter of will, not power.

Offline Basil

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2022, 04:56:54 PM »
33 BC. Crucified in 1AD. Cycle fits perfectly. Bit out of date for modern thinking, but it's been bandied.

No you've got it backwards.  Christ was born in the later years of Augustus and crucified during reign of Tiberius.  There are some debates amongst scholars and theologians as to the precise year of his birth and death, but not enough to change the Star Born timing problem here. 

Here's wikipedia (yes, I know): 

Quote
The date of birth for Jesus of Nazareth is not stated in the gospels or in any secular text, but a majority of scholars assume a date between 6 BC and 4 BC.[15] The historical evidence is too ambiguous to allow a definitive date to be determined,[16] but the date has been estimated through known historical events mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew chapter 2 and Luke chapter 2[17] or by working backwards from the estimated start of the ministry of Jesus.[18][19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus

Quote
The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is considered an established historical event by many,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details. There were 4 people present at the scene. These were Saint Peter, Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of Jesus and Mary, wife of Clopas.[2][3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2022, 01:49:29 AM »
No you've got it backwards.  Christ was born in the later years of Augustus and crucified during reign of Tiberius.  There are some debates amongst scholars and theologians as to the precise year of his birth and death, but not enough to change the Star Born timing problem here. 

Here's wikipedia (yes, I know): 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

You didn't hear what I was saying.

If the Crucifixtion was 1AD, as some mildly religious people think, Christ is born in 33BC and the cycle fits. It's Butcher's story, there's room for him to say "People think X when it's Y"

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2022, 10:48:58 AM »
There are people on this forum who think Christ was one third of a 30lb Grey Tomcat, so you argument pales in comparison.

Offline Arjan

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Re: A Thought About The Items From Hades
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2022, 11:06:24 AM »
I think the items are older than Christianity and just got extra meaning attached.
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