The Law

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Since when did the White Council deign to consult with anyone? They thought all the big bads were already locked away, turns out they missed at least one Titan and a Naagloshii. Morgan’s previous run-in with a Naagloshii should have warned them.

Mab put together the Accords in part because the White Council were shirking their duties and more obsessed with their rogue members as being the biggest threats.

Uriel can do bugger all.

I do wonder though whether they nudged Harry towards Demonreach.

The Otso skull would work as a sanctum for the spirit, and it would pull ectoplasm from the Never Never to give it a body. There are limits, the body will collapse if trapped within  a circle, experienced dawn, or tried to pass a threshold, or gets too badly damaged. It’s the same trick Goodman Grey uses to increase his mass.

Bobs Skull is enchanted so he has to obey the current owner. That prevents him running around and doing as he pleases, and I would suspect the enchantment prevents Bob doing this, creating a body which is why he wants his holiday home. Bonea’s skull doesn’t appear to have this control element.

Harry is an unreliable narrator, and thinks Burger King is better than McDonalds. At GP Harry was young, naive and thought the White Council was the centre of everything. Jim would exactly introduce the real identity of Cowl in a Novella, to get a rise out of the fans. See the podcast

[morriswalters]

Did I miss something? Bianca got the Atheme from Cowl, Lea got it from Bianca.

Bianca presented her with a small black case. Lea opened it, and a slow tremble ran down her body, made her flame-red hair shift and glisten. My godmother closed it again and said, “A princely gift. Happily, as is the custom of my people, I have brought a matter of equal worth, to exchange with you.”

[Mira]

I'm not sure why she'd react like Harry addressing Marcone as "Sir" at the end of BG was filling in a piece for her if she already knew.

I just reread that scene, Mab's reaction was approval of Harry humbling Marcone in front of everyone, because it was with a sarcastic tone that he called him, "Sir."  Mab was clearly supporting Harry all through that though she didn't say much, she didn't have to, but she seemed to enjoy Harry getting the best of Marcone.

Bobs Skull is enchanted so he has to obey the current owner. That prevents him running around and doing as he pleases, and I would suspect the enchantment prevents Bob doing this, creating a body which is why he wants his holiday home. Bonea’s skull doesn’t appear to have this control element.

Bob's skull is a real human skull, or is described as that, the one Bonea lives in is made of wood. One that Harry was attempting to carve for Bob originally. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Did I miss something? Bianca got the Atheme from Cowl, Lea got it from Bianca.

Of course which would have insulated Cowl from the Law of Winter regarding giving of gifts to Lea if Cowl was subject to the Law of Winter. Otherwise Lea on accepting it from Cowl would have been obligated to Cowl. Bianca was a social climber, the gifts to Lea and Mavra and Ferro were to get them there, at this high profile public event, the benefit that Bianca obtained from giving them. Bianca (and the Red Court) was obligated to Cowl and they paid that  obligation off with the attack on the White Council to the Circle timetable rather their own, but then Harry upset things.

The Law doesn’t refer to Chicago legal system, it refers to the Law of Winter principally, and that’s important, it binds the Winter Court only. It therefore makes sense that beyond the major characters we know associated with Winter there is someone  else also subject to Winter Law looking for ways to work around it or to break free of it. The actions of Cowl in GP definitely follow that pattern. In DB Cowl is looking for a major power up, one which incidentally would weaken Mab by destroying a very powerful vassal. That’s definitely consistent. In White Night Cowl is behind the White Court breakaway scheme to kill the mortal practitioners and weaken mankind’s link to magic. Cowl does nothing in conflict with Winter Law, it looks to be purely Circle Business, and he uses willing White Court cats paws so initiating conflict between the White Court and the White Council, keeping Winter out of it.

Thats why I think Cowl is Nameless, Jim must be laughing his ass off that the anonymous character who has clearly been keeping himself anonymous throughout the series is in fact Nameless. Nameless himself raises the fact that his lack of a name makes it very difficult for wizards to lock onto him. Cowl was immensely surprised in WN Harry had done so, but Harry could only do so because of Little Chicago, which took a totally different approach to tracking and locating to those normally used (name, blood, personal possessions) .

[Mira]

Of course which would have insulated Cowl from the Law of Winter regarding giving of gifts to Lea if Cowl was subject to the Law of Winter. Otherwise Lea on accepting it from Cowl would have been obligated to Cowl. Bianca was a social climber, the gifts to Lea and Mavra and Ferro were to get them there, at this high profile public event, the benefit that Bianca obtained from giving them. Bianca (and the Red Court) was obligated to Cowl and they paid that  obligation off with the attack on the White Council to the Circle timetable rather their own, but then Harry upset things.

Do you really think Mab would have allowed any of that to go unpunished? Because is Nameless is Cowl then the infected Knife originated in the Winter Court, since though practicing in the mortal world, Nameless is still a part of of it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It depends on whether at the time of GP she knew Nameless was working against her. After Arctis Tor in PG she knew and kicked him out, but still kept him under Winter Law. The most we have seen of Cowl is in DB, the book before PG. We see him via Little Chicago (which is maybe why Mab fixed it) and we see him briefly looking into the cavern from the NeverNever in WN. Not Mab’s business.

If Mab went through Harry’s memories when he became Winter Knight (this is Mab and Harry had Molly remove his suicide plot memories beforehand, so yes) Mab has access to Harry’s memories. She will have examined those of GP and the handover of the Athame and from that further examined Harry’s memories of Cowl in DB and WN.

Mab will have known Nameless is Cowl from Changes. Cowl has been keeping a low profile since then, as he may suspect Mab now has Harry’s knowledge of Cowl and he is still subject to Winter Law in the way Laplander is subject to him. Hence no Cowl in Peace Talks/Battle Ground. At this point he probably started working with Listen (not to have him as a Vassal, as that would put him in conflict with Winter attacking the Winter Lady’s family)

Mab must be annoyed that Harry took on Nameless in The Law, as it led to Harry getting two important clues and may result in Nameless getting burnt before her plan for him rolls out. She is clearly setting up Nameless for something and it isn’t good. I think perhaps a collision course with the Denarians and Marcone. She wants the Denarians who attacked Arctis Tor with Hellfire. I think that surprised her, not the assault but that it included one or more Denarians, and it is exposing who amongst them. She has Harry’s memory of his conversation with Nicky in SF, so knows it surprised Nicky and she now knows that Nicky’s control over them is not as strong as everybody thought. Skin Game required Nicky to sacrifice Deidre, creating an irrevocable rift with Tessa and weakening Nicky immensely. Preparation for exposing the Denarian member or members of the Circle given Mab’s penchant for scheming.

[morriswalters]

If Cowl were Nameless then the events of Dead Beat needn't to have happened. Nameless is already a deity controlling a witch who did what Cowl attempted to do.  Seems kind of circular. Maybe I'm missing something.

Butcher is retconning Proven Guilty. Effectively saying, oh yeah, I forgot to  tell you that there were characters which you did not notice, doing things that were important to the main story line, that I didn't bother to ever mention until at least ten or more years after the fact. That is a lot of heavy lifting for a reader.

Care to speculate about who will Harry use to to do the legwork on his prenup with Lara? However I did like the chickens. And the disembodied wife. Can you guess about the genesis of the premise of the plot?

@Conspiracy Theorist

There are more similarities between Demonreach and Arctis Tor then you mention. But doors open both ways.  If the point were  to free Lea then why not enter  through Demonreach instead of Pell's theater, thus saving the walk and the need to fight your way through the courtyard? Ditto on attacking the Wellspring directly. Purely descriptively, the portal would be connected to the Well itself rather than on the island in general. The Well is the prison rather than the island.

[Mira]

If Cowl were Nameless then the events of Dead Beat needn't to have happened. Nameless is already a deity controlling a witch who did what Cowl attempted to do.  Seems kind of circular. Maybe I'm missing something.

My point also, if you are already a demigod, why do you need Darkhallow?

Care to speculate about who will Harry use to to do the legwork on his prenup with Lara? However I did like the chickens. And the disembodied wife. Can you guess about the genesis of the premise of the plot?

Though he doesn't perhaps know the laws and politics involved in something like this, but I think Michael would throw Lara's people off balance just a bit.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nameless is less powerful than Mab say at The Erl Kings level, he is bound by Winter Law and the only way out would be to reverse the balance of power, as he did with Laplander. That may be why he teamed up with Kemmler, he needed to go into Winter but needed a way out when the time was right, which didn’t involve him dying.

Indeed but if this was a scouting visit for Demonreach to ascertain its physical location and the state of its defences then the Way through Arctis Tor is the only option. You otherwise might inadvertently get to inspect the prison from the inside. They may have found out that it had an absentee warden and minimal active defences and where it was. That might have signed Fortiers Death Warrant, Peabody could get to the island safely in the mortal world and become the Warden in a leisurely fashion. However Harry got involved.

Why yes Jim would do a retcon of Proven Guilty. He already has with Morgan’s Microfiction.

[vincentric]

There was no need to do convoluted and dangerous cloak and dagger missions to scout Demonreach before the end of CD. Anyone with the will to fight off the passive avoidance aura could just hop on a boat and go there in a matter of hours. Nic and company set up there for a couple of days without any consequences. Demonreach's mental attacks are just something Jim uses to isolate Harry from his friends. They've never even slowed down his enemies.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Oh dear I hadn’t thought of that.

Actually I had and it is set out in several previous threads. Demonreach is a Blacksite prison, it’s location is likely to to be highly restricted even among the Senior Council.

Beings who go to Demonreach tend to do so as a one way trip. Ask Ethnui. I doubt inmates get conjugal visits (Thomas may be a first, naturally)

Even Wardens may only have travelled there by the Way, indeed Kemmler most likely only ever did so. Unless he got a fix on its position via longitude and latitude, all that is known is that it is an island on a body of water. You can’t get a fix on it via magic. You would physically have to search for it, or in Harry’s case just stumble over it. When Kemmler got booted out as Warden it may be that Fistful of Warlocks was actually Kemmler trying to physically locate Demonreach in the real world. Which is difficult, even with 21st C tech.

Mab would have closed off the way to Kemmler when he got booted, so whilst Warden he was not able to reach the island. When he finally died it mean’t the Senior Council could appoint a new warden with the Gatekeeper shadowing the candidate through the Way. The Senior Council may not even have known the location if it was only known to the Gatekeeper. Thus Peabody couldn’t get it with his ink, as like Harry the Gatekeeper was only around rarely, and Fortier an old wizard was dead set about visiting the place, but he may have let slip to Peabody the Way was via Arctis Tor. “Demonreach? Why would I want to go to Arctis Tor?”

When one thinks of the Gatekeeper one thinks of the Outer Gates, but perhaps he was also the Gatekeeper for other things, such as the access for Demonreach. And who knows what other Gates?

You didn’t think I had just the one Conspiracy Theory did you?

[Mira]

There was no need to do convoluted and dangerous cloak and dagger missions to scout Demonreach before the end of CD. Anyone with the will to fight off the passive avoidance aura could just hop on a boat and go there in a matter of hours. Nic and company set up there for a couple of days without any consequences. Demonreach's mental attacks are just something Jim uses to isolate Harry from his friends. They've never even slowed down his enemies.

Yes, the mental attacks were a subtle thing that eventually ran out would be intruders.  The fact for a time in the 1800s a small town was established that after a few years was abandoned along with the island is proof of that.  It is also evidence that at that time there was no real Warden in charge of the island's defenses.  Without a Warden to establish the true defenses of the island all Alfred can really do is send out bad vibes to discourage long term visitors.  Contrast with the current situation with Harry in charge, no one now gets on the island without his say.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Oh they can get on.

Getting off is an entirely different kettle of fish.

The fishing town would have been established when Kemmler got the sack as Warden, as you say because the active defences were down at the time. The Gatekeeper would likely be keeping an eye on things during this period, and the town would have been protective coloration so maybe he had a hand in establishing it as an additional non-magical defence to its discovery, as signs of visible habitation where none had previously existed would put off casual searchers for the island. Perhaps one or more workers were actually working for the Gatekeeper in case someone showed up? Early warning of Kemmlerites. Someone must have been living in the cottage.

[vincentric]

Oh dear I hadn’t thought of that.

Actually I had and it is set out in several previous threads. Demonreach is a Blacksite prison, it’s location is likely to to be highly restricted even among the Senior Council.

Beings who go to Demonreach tend to do so as a one way trip. Ask Ethnui. I doubt inmates get conjugal visits (Thomas may be a first, naturally)

Even Wardens may only have travelled there by the Way, indeed Kemmler most likely only ever did so. Unless he got a fix on its position via longitude and latitude, all that is known is that it is an island on a body of water. You can’t get a fix on it via magic. You would physically have to search for it, or in Harry’s case just stumble over it. When Kemmler got booted out as Warden it may be that Fistful of Warlocks was actually Kemmler trying to physically locate Demonreach in the real world. Which is difficult, even with 21st C tech.

Mab would have closed off the way to Kemmler when he got booted, so whilst Warden he was not able to reach the island. When he finally died it mean’t the Senior Council could appoint a new warden with the Gatekeeper shadowing the candidate through the Way. The Senior Council may not even have known the location if it was only known to the Gatekeeper. Thus Peabody couldn’t get it with his ink, as like Harry the Gatekeeper was only around rarely, and Fortier an old wizard was dead set about visiting the place, but he may have let slip to Peabody the Way was via Arctis Tor. “Demonreach? Why would I want to go to Arctis Tor?”

When one thinks of the Gatekeeper one thinks of the Outer Gates, but perhaps he was also the Gatekeeper for other things, such as the access for Demonreach. And who knows what other Gates?

You didn’t think I had just the one Conspiracy Theory did you?

Your theory is fine for excluding the good guys and the neutrals.

It's the Bad Guys we're worried about though. Nic knows and probably so do another many of the other Denarians. The Fallen predate Demonreach and I'm sure many of their allies, pawns and enemies have ended up there in the course of the lasy 2K years. So that's one group that knows.

Nemesis and the rest of the Outsiders of any import probably also know. One wonders if they have never plotted against the prison before. They've had longer than Nic and company to try. It only takes a few survivors of failed attempts or the cultivation of a new crop of power hungry warlocks to get that knowledge out and about. And this is a "We only have to succeed once, You have to be perfect countless times." problem.

So that's two groups that have travelled there without a Way. Do we know of any others? No, but we also didn't know that the island was Supernatural Alcatraz until it was revealed in CD. Sometimes authors introduce a plot hook without thinking through the long term implications or inferences for their worlds. It's just the simplest explanation.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I would think only beings with Intellectus would be aware of Demonreach and what exactly it is. Very few beings have a comprehensive Intellectus, we have seen only three, mothers Winter, Summer and Uriel. I doubt even Anduriel can see into Demonreach, but it gives him a nice warm vibe.

The bad vibe it gives is attractive to bad guys in the same way that warehouse keeps getting used for murder, or like Chichen Itsa. If they knew what it was they wouldn’t go near it, it’s a trap.