Little Things [spoilers]

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not Marcone as there were children at the Castle.

That wouldn’t stop the Merlin. Harry is the single greatest threat to his power as Merlin, which to him is everything.

Harry has not only publicly defied the Merlin and won in killing the Red Court, he solo’d a Titan, making him the most powerful single living wizard and has control over the Little Folk. No Non-Senior Council Wizard has achieved such feats of this magnitude since Kemmler.

In addition Harry holds both Excalibur and Demonreach, and is a confidant of Odin(the original Merlin tutor) , and the Lady of the Lake (Mab). He has a better claim to the title The Merlin than the Merlin does. That must hurt on a personal level. The Merlin may be suffering from Imposter syndrome on top of everything else, that perhaps he really isn’t the true Merlin and Harry is, something Kemmler couldn’t achieve. The Merlin feared Kemmler, he both hates and fears Harry.

[Mira]

Not Marcone as there were children at the Castle.

He may not know that, also he is now a Denarian.. He may not have control over what Namshiel wants.  Remember it was the accidental soul gaze of a Denarian back in Death Masks that hardened Harry's will against taking up Lasciel's coin.  He didn't want to become a slave to her and never bought the "equal partnership" proposal from her.  I also doubt that the Merlin would know about the kinds of wards that the castle has.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Marcone would know, he would make it his business to know what’s going on in the Castle.

Namshiel is only able to operate in the mortal world because of his hosts free will, and Marcone is no wreck like Rasmussen.

[Mira]

Marcone would know, he would make it his business to know what’s going on in the Castle.

Namshiel is only able to operate in the mortal world because of his hosts free will, and Marcone is no wreck like Rasmussen.

I don't think it is that simple, Harry evidently didn't.

[g33k]

... Namshiel is only able to operate in the mortal world because of his hosts free will, and Marcone is no wreck like Rasmussen.

Note that the Denarians cheat.  Acting to counter that cheating is one of the things that gives Uriel & Co more scope & agency, themselves.

Also note that a malign Angel could swiftly break ANY mortal will, even Marcone's.  That the Fallen do not do that is (I think) one of the limits that they choose to abide by, specifically to prevent non-Fallen angels from acting to oppose them.

I expect that -- in general -- each Host makes their own separate "Deal with the Devil," specific to the Host/Denarian pair.  And Denarians are good at negotiating those deals; hellishly good (outclassing even Marcone).

I think the Coins themselves have inherent "deals" -- the deals whereby Fallen Angels get to exist within the mortal realm -- no summoning needed!!?!  oh  em  gee !  -- for just anyone to pick up.

But then, within the limits of the Coins and of the Host's deals, the Denarians have a fair bit of leeway; in fact, everything not explicitly forbidden is allowed.

[Arjan]

Marcone would know, he would make it his business to know what’s going on in the Castle.

Namshiel is only able to operate in the mortal world because of his hosts free will, and Marcone is no wreck like Rasmussen.

That is what the fallen wants you to think but reality is more complicated. First the fallen can influence or even change your perception of reality. Harry got a very convincing imaginary girlfriend from a shadow so the real thing can be even worse. We have seen that a shadow can influence your emotions, Lasciel’s shadow increased his rage. Again the real deal is probably worse and we have seen several occasions when talking to a denarian host seemed to go wel and suddenly it changed.

So it resides in you, has some control over your emotions and how you see reality. Offers you solutions that will steer you into a certain direction.

The fallen might tell you about free wil but if you keep the thing for long it will change you.

[Mira]

That is what the fallen wants you to think but reality is more complicated. First the fallen can influence or even change your perception of reality. Harry got a very convincing imaginary girlfriend from a shadow so the real thing can be even worse. We have seen that a shadow can influence your emotions, Lasciel’s shadow increased his rage. Again the real deal is probably worse and we have seen several occasions when talking to a denarian host seemed to go wel and suddenly it changed.

So it resides in you, has some control over your emotions and how you see reality. Offers you solutions that will steer you into a certain direction.

The fallen might tell you about free wil but if you keep the thing for long it will change you.

Yes, and that was Lasciel's first mistake, she treated Harry like any other host.  Yes, Harry was fooled by Shelia at first, but once the truth was revealed to him by Butters, he was on his guard. The Shadow did manage to shape him by influencing his anger, but when Murphy sat him down and talked to him about it, and then the "lesson" that he tried to teach Molly made him realize what the Shadow was doing and he for the most part resisted that and actually changed her.  I don't think Harry could have pulled it off if he weren't a star born.  The same will or whatever it is that can resist an Outsider, can be a match for a shadow of a fallen angel.

[Arjan]

Yes, and that was Lasciel's first mistake, she treated Harry like any other host.  Yes, Harry was fooled by Shelia at first, but once the truth was revealed to him by Butters, he was on his guard. The Shadow did manage to shape him by influencing his anger, but when Murphy sat him down and talked to him about it, and then the "lesson" that he tried to teach Molly made him realize what the Shadow was doing and he for the most part resisted that and actually changed her.  I don't think Harry could have pulled it off if he weren't a star born.  The same will or whatever it is that can resist an Outsider, can be a match for a shadow of a fallen angel.

But that was only the shadow of the real thing. If you have the real thing and you are not rejecting it sooner or later you will be the servant whether you know it or not. Especially when you don’t know it. Harry did not buy that partnership thing but Marcone apparently did.

[Mira]

But that was only the shadow of the real thing. If you have the real thing and you are not rejecting it sooner or later you will be the servant whether you know it or not. Especially when you don’t know it. Harry did not buy that partnership thing but Marcone apparently did.

Agreed, I think arrogance has a little to do with it as well.  Marcone might think he is strong enough to handle a partnership like that, and he has also hungered for a wizard's power ever since he witnessed Harry blowing the doors off his club.  That desire is what played right into Namshiel's hands.  Also note that we never knew the name of the previous host, it was simply, Thorned Namshiel.  The host's identity had been totally absorbed.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Agreed, I think arrogance has a little to do with it as well.  Marcone might think he is strong enough to handle a partnership like that, and he has also hungered for a wizard's power ever since he witnessed Harry blowing the doors off his club.  That desire is what played right into Namshiel's hands.  Also note that we ever knew the name of the previous host, it was simply, Thorton Namshiel.  The host's identity had been totally absorbed.

The irony of Marcone's situation is that should the crime lord start to exhibit unusual or aberrant behavior, the only person who is likely to tell Marcone that he isn't acting like himself, is Harry.  Gard is just a paid consultant and it's not her place to question any changes in Marcone's personality; though Gard's boss might like it if she reported any such changes to him.  Helen Beckitt / Demeter would certainly notice any odd behavior from Marcone, but it's unlikely she would say anything.  Her long-term goal is screw over Marcone so she doesn't have any motivation to do anything but make note of any changes in Marcone's demeanor or normal behavior, for possible use at the appropriate time.

None of the Knights know Marcone personally.  It's not like Butters or Sanya could point out to Marcone that he is no longer acting like himself, but Harry could; and baring orders from Mab to keep his much shut, Harry probably would.  This could make for a very interesting scene between Harry and Marcone, but if it occurs, I would guess that we wouldn't see it until after Harry returns from the Mirror Mirror world or perhaps not until the next Denarian book, which I believe will be the last book before the BAT.

There is also the question if Harry could do anything to get around interference from Thorned Namshiel.  Harry would know from his experience with Hannah Ascher that the Fallen can make their host hear anything they want them too.  Harry would have to think of something subtle to tell Marcone to avoid that, and Harry isn't someone we normally associate with subtlety.   

[g33k]

... There is also the question if Harry could do anything to get around interference from Thorned Namshiel.  Harry would know from his experience with Hannah Ascher that the Fallen can make their host hear anything they want them too.  Harry would have to think of something subtle to tell Marcone to avoid that, and Harry isn't someone we normally associate with subtlety.   

Yeah, to quote Harry himself:  "Fuck subtle!"

Luckily, he doesn't need subtlety.  He's clever, and he's already learned this lesson:  the communication-spell he used with Elaine; most critically, while Elaine was being attacked by the despair-whamp (whose name escapes me).

He'll need a drop of Marcone's blood (or similar), and THAT will be the hard part.  But I bet the spirit-to-spirit channel is one that not even the Fallen can blot out.  That'll be a challenge!  Especially with Namshiel on the lookout.

[Mira]

Yeah, to quote Harry himself:  "Fuck subtle!"

Luckily, he doesn't need subtlety.  He's clever, and he's already learned this lesson:  the communication-spell he used with Elaine; most critically, while Elaine was being attacked by the despair-whamp (whose name escapes me).

He'll need a drop of Marcone's blood (or similar), and THAT will be the hard part.  But I bet the spirit-to-spirit channel is one that not even the Fallen can blot out.  That'll be a challenge!  Especially with Namshiel on the lookout.

  I think that Harry was able to communicate with Elaine in that manner is because of the close bond between them.  He has no such mental/emotional bond with Marcone.  Namshiel would be aware of any type of communication I'd think.  Harry and Molly also achieved a mental bond, or a type of mental bond when they did their mental sparing.

[KurtinStGeorge]

There was someone who once posted the idea that in the Mirror Mirror world regular Harry might discover a very different Alt-Marcone, perhaps even a redeemed Alt-Marcone.  It seemed a bit farfetched to me at the time, but if regular Harry and redeemed Alt-Marcone became temporary allies, Alt-Marcone might reveal something he would have in common with his darker self in our universe.  This assumes Alt-Marcone would want his other self to have a chance at redemption or prevent his darker self from attaining his goals.

The above scenario is quite a stretch, but in such a situation Harry might learn a secret that only our Marcone would know, or perhaps learn Marcone's complete real name.  Using that might be a way for Harry to reach Marcone in a way he couldn't have with Hannah Ascher.

[Dina]

I think Marcone real name would be significant in the future, as a code or something, but I do not know if it would be related with the Mirror Mirror book. I also think that Marcone sees not himself as that person anymore, so I believe his Name is not John Marcone and not whatever name he was born with, because he identifies himself with the new name, the one he chose.
I also with Kurtin in the fact that Harry would be the one realizing something is wrong with Marcone (also, not many people knows he is a denarian, so not many people will have a reason for suspect foul play) and, Harry being Harry, would help Marcone. But all that is theory, because I do not think it will happen. Marcone's will power is strong and I am sure he cut a deal with Namshiel. He won't be controlled.

[Mira]

I think Marcone real name would be significant in the future, as a code or something, but I do not know if it would be related with the Mirror Mirror book. I also think that Marcone sees not himself as that person anymore, so I believe his Name is not John Marcone and not whatever name he was born with, because he identifies himself with the new name, the one he chose.
I also with Kurtin in the fact that Harry would be the one realizing something is wrong with Marcone (also, not many people knows he is a denarian, so not many people will have a reason for suspect foul play) and, Harry being Harry, would help Marcone. But all that is theory, because I do not think it will happen. Marcone's will power is strong and I am sure he cut a deal with Namshiel. He won't be controlled.

Oh I think he will be controlled, like Nic maybe he will think it is his decisions or that he and Namshiel make them together, but he will realize that he is no longer calling the shots.  I think he will come to regret his decision, somewhere find the strength to reject the coin.  I think there is redemption out there for him, but it has to come from him.  He may be the one who eventually wields the Sword of Love because of that once little girl who lies in a coma because of him.  That regret is the one ounce of humanity left in him.