Author Topic: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow  (Read 12064 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2022, 03:42:38 PM »
... but he would have gone after Rudolph and through anyone who tried to stop him ...

Not anyone.

If Michael had stood in his way?
Mouse?  You think he would have attacked Mouse?

Sanya is a very-iffy "maybe" to me:  Harry knows Sanya as one of the "good guys," always an ally, always trustworthy.  But also, always a fighter; so I can kinda-sorta see Harry fighting Sanya to get what he wants so badly (to kill Rudy).

Butters, I think, is off-limits to a Harry not "under the influence."  Butters has just barely emerged from the "helpless nerd who needs protecting" stage of things.  I can see rage-Harry pushing Butters aside, shoving even.  But not an outright attack with deadly force; again:  unless "under the influence."
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2022, 08:05:05 PM »
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Snapping implies a loss of control.  In terms of character development why did Butcher have Harry lose his shit? What did the passage accomplish?  What was it meant to do? I understand the emotional shorthand that Butcher is using, at least in part.

  Butcher is saying first and foremost, Harry is a human being.  His reaction given his love for Murphy and the stress of being on a war footing is normal!  Audie Murphy spoke of the same thing happening to him in a battle, his best friend was killed in front of him, something snapped and he took out a whole hill of machine gun nest all by himself. That psychologist says it is built into the human brain, it is a normal reaction though not all are perhaps as extreme as Harry's was, but there are those that are.
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Not anyone.
Yeah, anyone, if you have never had that kind of reaction you don't understand.  When our son killed himself, my husband tried to stop me from going to his room.  I literately ran over him in the hallway to get to his room.  Nothing was going to stop me.  Apparently two trained Holy Warriors couldn't stop Harry from going after Rudolph.  Oh they could have shot him, I suppose, but other than that Sword burn, nothing else would have brought him back to his senses.
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If Michael had stood in his way?
Mouse?  You think he would have attacked Mouse?
No, Michael wouldn't have been able to stop him.  Mouse perhaps with sheer physical animal strength, taking him down and sitting on him. Or maybe not even him because the Winter Knight Mantle would have taken over.  We are talking about the same combination of hormones that take over that allows an 80 pound kid to lift a car that has fallen on his father.
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Sanya is a very-iffy "maybe" to me:  Harry knows Sanya as one of the "good guys," always an ally, always trustworthy.  But also, always a fighter; so I can kinda-sorta see Harry fighting Sanya to get what he wants so badly (to kill Rudy).
Rationally maybe, and you'd be right, except when a person "snaps" they are no longer thinking rationally. 
As Dr Fields says
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“Why We Snap” outlines nine, but some of the most common ones are a life or death threat, threat to a loved one, threat to your home, or threat to your tribe. “Our brain is wired to constantly be on the lookout for threats,” Fields says. “In response to sudden danger, we react automatically; you can't think about

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Butters, I think, is off-limits to a Harry not "under the influence."  Butters has just barely emerged from the "helpless nerd who needs protecting" stage of things.  I can see rage-Harry pushing Butters aside, shoving even.  But not an outright attack with deadly force; again:  unless "under the influence."
 
Which proves the point actually, a rationally thinking Harry would never attack Butters.  Heck even in Skin Game when Butters was attacking him, Harry did his best not to hurt him.
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Butcher is showing you the monster.  The other Harry. the Harry that is arrogant, full of rage, and absolutely cock sure of himself.  Who is certain that what he is doing is right, and the way it's supposed to be. 
No, Butcher is showing us a human being.  You and I under the various circumstances are capable of snapping just like he was.  Oh you can claim you wouldn't but apparently it isn't a voluntary reaction according to Dr Fields, it is wired into a part of our brains. What you are saying might apply to Harry in other ways, but had nothing to do with his reaction to Murphy being shot and dying in his arms in that moment.
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My contention is that now you know.  Harry was programmed to react in this way.
No more that you are or I am... He maybe programmed but his reaction to Murphy's death had nothing to do with that.
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I feel sorry for Harry because as a character he's been abused by people close to him. He was programmed to be a psychopath.  He's trying to be something more.  I wish I was going to see how it all turns out.
No, he isn't a psychopath..
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Psychopathy is a maladaptive personality disorder character- ized by such traits as a lack of remorse, manipulativeness, egocentricity, superficial charm, and shallow affect (Cleckley, 1941; Hare, 1991).


Harry was totally remorseful, and he feels empathy for those that suffered and died, he is no psychopath.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2022, 09:59:04 PM »
For me this conversation is over. I don't care or dare to respond to what you have written.  I asked for a narrative reason and you've given me something isn't appropriate for this venue.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2022, 12:32:20 AM »
The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM »
The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.

Yes, and it is later confirmed by Uriel, that is why he was gifted Soul Fire to balance the scales.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2022, 12:56:17 PM »
Yes, and it is later confirmed by Uriel, that is why he was gifted Soul Fire to balance the scales.

Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2022, 04:23:24 PM »
Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.

Oh perfect, one of those loud ties, maybe with peacocks on it to counter Nic's noose.. ::)

Offline Mr. Mouse

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2022, 04:47:35 PM »
Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.

Thomas gave Harry a bow tie.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2022, 05:04:50 PM »
Thomas gave Harry a bow tie.

That could work, but Harry doesn't seem the bow tie type... Maybe a nice bolo tie with a nice gaudy
defense slide.. He adjusts it an all hell breaks lose.. ;)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2022, 06:04:46 PM »
The only tie Harry could comfortably wear is a Wiley Coyote character tie if given to him by Maggie. It would have be a clip on (Nick tries to strangle him by it, Surprise!) He would have to wear matching socks though. Nick’s socks are probably unholy.




Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2022, 10:42:25 PM »
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The only tie Harry could comfortably wear is a Wiley Coyote character tie if given to him by Maggie. It would have be a clip on (Nick tries to strangle him by it, Surprise!) He would have to wear matching socks though. Nick’s socks are probably unholy

Yes, in contrast to Harry who toes the line so closely that his are down right sanctified.

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2022, 01:02:51 AM »
The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.

Lasciel may have instructed her Shadow otherwise, when placing it; we know they don't all get along!

The only Denarian whose "order" I'd believe would have been Lasciels...

And frankly, not even then.

These are beings whose plans stretch into multiple centuries... You think they aren't willing to lay a "Long Con" against a Starborn Wizard (who already notched his belt with a Darkhallow & a Summer Lady, so getting notable) to convince him (after giving the Shadow a solid few months to tempt him) that the Shadow was gone?

I'd even be willing to believe -- though I admit this is a stretch -- that the entire "Assault on the Whamps in the Raith Deeps" scene was mainly a cover operation so "Lash" could bow out of the equation and the Shadow could go back to covert manipulation, and Nic's order was to reinforce that it WAS gone.

We'll have to see (in a volume or two) if Harry comes to the same conclusion, and re-confronts the Shadow.

I mean, it IS all a WAG for now!

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2022, 01:05:51 AM »
  That could work, but Harry doesn't seem the bow tie type... Maybe a nice bolo tie with a nice gaudy
defense slide.. He adjusts it an all hell breaks lose.. ;) 

A hat.

Mirror!Harry will have a hat.

And it will be an Evil Hat.


(just in case anyone here doesn't already know:  the DF roleplaying game is published by a company named "Evil Hat")

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2022, 01:36:42 AM »
The Hat’s a given, we have been seeing covers from the Mirrorverse all along.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2022, 04:05:40 AM »
Lasciel may have instructed her Shadow otherwise, when placing it; we know they don't all get along!

The only Denarian whose "order" I'd believe would have been Lasciels...

And frankly, not even then.

These are beings whose plans stretch into multiple centuries... You think they aren't willing to lay a "Long Con" against a Starborn Wizard (who already notched his belt with a Darkhallow & a Summer Lady, so getting notable) to convince him (after giving the Shadow a solid few months to tempt him) that the Shadow was gone?

I'd even be willing to believe -- though I admit this is a stretch -- that the entire "Assault on the Whamps in the Raith Deeps" scene was mainly a cover operation so "Lash" could bow out of the equation and the Shadow could go back to covert manipulation, and Nic's order was to reinforce that it WAS gone.

We'll have to see (in a volume or two) if Harry comes to the same conclusion, and re-confronts the Shadow.

I mean, it IS all a WAG for now!
The Sigil is gone, Molly tiptoed through Harry's Tulips, he got a power up from Mr. Sunshine and his soul went on a walkabout in Ghost Story.  If she's in there, she's well hidden. But I admire an optimist.

I on the other hand suggest she's hiding in plain sight.