Author Topic: Battle ground questions  (Read 13224 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2022, 02:56:33 PM »
All time travel stories are paradoxical by definition since they break causality. If Harry is going to time travel and Butcher says he is, and if he is going to change things, then he has to explain the paradox since he directly pointed it out.

If his intent is to merely fix continuity errors he can use the dazzle them with footwork technique.  Spielberg did this in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he has Indy hide on a submarine in broad daylight in the middle of the Med.  He then ramps up the action and never gives you a chance to question it. That's one way and I would be okay with that.

He seems to have something more substantive in mind. I don't know the why but I think he's telling us how. His chosen path seems to be a branching history. This is Mirror Mirror in a nutshell. So if he is in a time loop, the idea may be that he has not returned to the future he comes from. The Dresden time line that we see doesn't contain Harry Prime.  That the reality the DFiles takes place in, isn't the the reality it started from. 

What I would suspect if this were true, is that eventually Harry Prime ended  up in a place where things are falling apart. And goes back from the end of the world to loop through again to try and stop it. But this timeline is a product of the loop.  This is classic time travel fodder. So in this scenario the Harry we see isn't Harry Prime. Harry Prime is either dead somewhere in the past or hidden somewhere.
In a nutshell why I don't like time travel stories. I like causality.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2022, 04:03:20 PM »
You and me both. ;D

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2022, 11:41:30 AM »
Only Harry is aware that Elaine is nearly as strong as him, the lazy White Council are relying upon Carlos assessment, as being too weak for the White Council. Carlos and his judgements on attractive women should not be trusted. I wonder if he reported back on the Molly incident?

Carlos will almost certainly try to reign in Elaine on orders of the White Council only to find to his horror, she is both much more powerful and more technically gifted (due to her tuition in Summer) than he is. It will not go well for Carlos psyche.
Well, as far as we know. If Cowl were on the White Council he would know about Elaine's real strength (along with whatever other agents that may exist, who may know of her). Carlos is an admittedly poor judge.

All of which illustrate the point I was making: hiding one's magical strength, skill, will, experience and natural talent can happen. How many other "weak" practioners are more than they seem? Let alone those who apparently demonstrate little to no magical talent or knowledge.

By the way, I'd say Carlos would have had to report some of the attack by Molly given the extent of his injuries. And the Senior Council have enormous information streams that they have access to, so I would hardly be surprised if they knew before he reported to them.

Why do you think Carlos would try and reign in Elaine? As far as he knows (and the White Council at large), she is a lowly non-wizard level talent. A minor practioner in their eyes. I do suspect Elaine could take Carlos, because while Carlos is probably the right sort of fighter to take out Dresden and exploit his weaknesses, those same talents will leave him vulnerable to someone like Elaine. Which isn't to say Carlos is a slouch either.

All time travel stories are paradoxical by definition since they break causality. If Harry is going to time travel and Butcher says he is, and if he is going to change things, then he has to explain the paradox since he directly pointed it out.

If his intent is to merely fix continuity errors he can use the dazzle them with footwork technique.  Spielberg did this in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he has Indy hide on a submarine in broad daylight in the middle of the Med.  He then ramps up the action and never gives you a chance to question it. That's one way and I would be okay with that.

He seems to have something more substantive in mind. I don't know the why but I think he's telling us how. His chosen path seems to be a branching history. This is Mirror Mirror in a nutshell. So if he is in a time loop, the idea may be that he has not returned to the future he comes from. The Dresden time line that we see doesn't contain Harry Prime.  That the reality the DFiles takes place in, isn't the the reality it started from. 

What I would suspect if this were true, is that eventually Harry Prime ended  up in a place where things are falling apart. And goes back from the end of the world to loop through again to try and stop it. But this timeline is a product of the loop.  This is classic time travel fodder. So in this scenario the Harry we see isn't Harry Prime. Harry Prime is either dead somewhere in the past or hidden somewhere.
I agree, some type of paradox has occured...somwhere. It would surprise me to learn Harry isn't one...
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2022, 03:06:48 PM »
I agree, Morty would be of wizard level, only a bit below Molly, but his talents and affinities run so clearly into the spirit, even more so than Molly, he would be tarred with necromancer brush, he would fake being weaker, and still manage to get on Morgan’s shit list. Wizard of Ghosts?

There may indeed be several Wizard Level talents who are going to be very interested in seeing what the White Council do with Harry publicly declaring himself the Wizard of Chicago. We might see others declaring themselves the Wizard of something or other

Offline Mira

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
I agree, Morty would be of wizard level, only a bit below Molly, but his talents and affinities run so clearly into the spirit, even more so than Molly, he would be tarred with necromancer brush, he would fake being weaker, and still manage to get on Morgan’s shit list. Wizard of Ghosts?

There may indeed be several Wizard Level talents who are going to be very interested in seeing what the White Council do with Harry publicly declaring himself the Wizard of Chicago. We might see others declaring themselves the Wizard of something or other

Or joining Harry to make a Council of their own..  When you think how Wardens go around nabbing young possible future warlocks and lopping their heads off, and yet we know of at least two very talented wizards the go unnoticed.. Just how competent is the White Council?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2022, 06:16:33 PM »
More likely to join the Paranet, get themselves certified as a wizard by Harry (who was recognised for years by the White Council), and set up shop. Harry needs to get the Paranet set up as an Accorded Nation, he doesn’t need to recreate the White Council with all its flaws

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2022, 06:24:47 AM »
Or joining Harry to make a Council of their own..  When you think how Wardens go around nabbing young possible future warlocks and lopping their heads off, and yet we know of at least two very talented wizards the go unnoticed.. Just how competent is the White Council?
I think it is heading to something like this. Yet truly, I think a lot of Harry doesn't want there to be a large White Council. I think as much as anything, Harry wants people to be left alone to look after themselves. The problem is when others start to form larger groups to take on those smaller than them...then you either must try and beat them yourself or join them or die or run away. So you run into the issue of making a governing body too small (i.e. it allows larger groups to form and dictate things). Because groups will inevitably form one way or another. A nation of individuals isn't a nation if you don't unify enough. But too much of it lessens the importance of the individual, which has it's own problems.

This leads us to where the White Council is now. There is a reason the original Merlin formed it after all. So Harry will have to make a choice to support a new White Council (because he won't want to run one), or be in constant opposition to it. Harry trying to remain neutral only works if he isn't attacked after all.

As for how competent the current White Council is...I think that depends on how you measure and define their competencies. Considering how bad things are now in Dresden's world, one could argue that the White Council has manifestly failed on it's core mission. On the other hand, considering how much worse things could be, one could argue they are succeeding. Luccio's discussion with Dresden in Turn Coat I believe illustrates this issue well. Harry comes off a bit immature sometimes in these discussions, which is understandable considering how long Luccio has been around.

More likely to join the Paranet, get themselves certified as a wizard by Harry (who was recognised for years by the White Council), and set up shop. Harry needs to get the Paranet set up as an Accorded Nation, he doesn’t need to recreate the White Council with all its flaws
I don't really get the point of setting up the Paranet as an Accorded Nation. Yes, they gain status and a measure of protection. But they also are then on the radar of bigger threats as well. Can you imagine witches like those Ordo Lebes practioners trying to mediate a dispute between the White Council and the Summer Court? Or Ferrovax and Drakul? Or Marcone and Harry? They just are not really at that level. They would need a sponsor far mightier than Harry, like some old god, and that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for them.

To me, the Paranet are more like the Fellowship of St Giles or the Venatori Umbrorum. They are small level allies of more powerful entities.

At best, I think they could be integrated into the White Council. I actually think that's one of the biggest and worst limitations of the White Council - the fact they limit practioners coming in based on magical strength/skill etc. It almost feels a bit pompous or arrogant of the Council to exclude such people.

I do agree the White Council in it's current shape doesn't work well enough. It needs major reform, the kind of reforms that are normally associated with head-to-toe restructuring (and often because of mass death/exodus). Rebuild it from the ashes and all that.

Less Euro-centric, more decentralized, better strategies aimed at reducing warlock numbers such as early detection and prevention, a more 21st century approach to the mortal world, less of a geritocracy, a more nuanced and intelligent approach to mortal political issues, and finally a FAR more robust legal framework aimed at reducing wizards who live in the "gray" areas that don't break the seven laws of magic (and maybe add some more laws?). Just a few ideas that could improve it.
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2022, 02:09:49 PM »
Membership of the Accords would protect the members from the depredations of other Members or face the wrath of Mab.

The White Council  could not hunt down and execute ‘warlocks’ openly who are members of an accorded nation, Winter could not prey on them. The Black Court, the Denarians and the Fomor would incite Article 4 should they attack them.

The benefit? The Accorded Nations can point to a relatively large base of ‘normal’ humans and say to the rest of humanity “look we support and protect you, just like we did with Chicago” it’s an essential step in opening up the Supernatural. The White Council is too small and unrepresentative to do this. It’s an elite and very happy about that thank you.

Offline Mira

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2022, 03:24:48 PM »


  Well, if Harry does form his own little club of wizards, since he is also the Winter Knight doesn't that make it's members, members of the Accords?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2022, 04:50:25 PM »
They would have to become members of Winter, like Toot and his band did. I don’t see many volunteers despite the sterling job Harry has done selling the proposition. Like having himself shot.

The point is a far wider membership than just wizards.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2022, 04:51:51 PM »
Harry in Chicago is one thing.  Harry anywhere else invites trouble he doesn't need. And the next sniper bullet could be in the head from a random human who doesn't work for the Archive. I also see no net value in the Paranet becoming an accorded nation. Their safety lies in obscurity.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2022, 08:30:09 PM »
Gosh if people realise Harry is with the Paranet, they might attack him?. He had better be careful.

Harry is in no more danger than he already is if the Paranet become an Accorded Nation. Any attack by a member of an Accorded Nation would be made to look like an accident such as a gas explosion. Paranet Members are safer from other Accorded Members if they become a nation. Following the Battle of Chicargo some hold outs from joining the Accords are likely to join, the Megapodes were already in the process, but I can see several Wildfae nations deciding to join, after what Ethnui did to one of them.

Offline Mira

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2022, 09:22:21 PM »
They would have to become members of Winter, like Toot and his band did. I don’t see many volunteers despite the sterling job Harry has done selling the proposition. Like having himself shot.

The point is a far wider membership than just wizards.

Last I checked Winter was still a member of the Accords.  Marcone might not like it though, the Baron is the rep of Chicago in the Accords, so he might take offense to Harry's claim.

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2022, 11:57:29 PM »
Marcone is a freehold in Baron of Chicago, it isn’t his territory, anymore it is Lara’s or the Swartalves. The nations under the accords appear to be more based on membership than territory, other than particular sites like the Swartalves Embassy or Accorded Neutral Territory such a Macs, all relatively small neatly defined parcels in the mortal world, therefore Marcone’s nation are the members of his organisation and all those whose swear fealty (and probably pay protection) to him.

Offline g33k

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Re: Battle ground questions
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2022, 12:14:00 AM »
...  On Reddit there has been some talk that he's told the betas that it will all come out in the end.

Yeah, but that's been true for, like... the last 5-10 novels, hasn't it?  It's a predictable 1-2-3 sequence:
  • Jim writes a new novel.
  • Fans point out clues, red-herrings, inconsistencies, correlations, &c &c &c ... like a pond where they're dumping nuggets of sodium metal.
  • And rumor spreads -- every time -- that Jim has reassured the beta readers that everything will work out in the end.