Author Topic: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp  (Read 25402 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2022, 11:22:57 PM »
I wonder if the Hellound SHOT the coin out of the Denarian. That would do it probably.
<heh>
Probably would, at that!

Heck, for all we know Kincaid has a private side-deal with Sanya, and can buy a case of KotC-blessed bullets...  ;-)

Offline Ed0517

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2022, 07:39:02 AM »
<heh>
Probably would, at that!

Heck, for all we know Kincaid has a private side-deal with Sanya, and can buy a case of KotC-blessed bullets...  ;-)

Gotta be careful with blessed bullets - understand when guns started in Europe some claimed they were a tool of the devil,  and tested regular bullets against blessed silver bullets with crosses engraved... and the guns were considered cursed because the regular bullets shot markedly better.....

(DUH _ Silver is much harder than lead. The silver bullets do not take to rifling well, the spin is erratic, and so the trajectory is too. Sorry Lone Ranger.)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2022, 11:06:41 AM »
My thought is that for full symbiosis the coins have to be in contact with the host, if contact is broken you have the shadow until contact is resumed. As powerful as Lash was she couldn’t heal Harry, whereas Lasciel could have. Once the host dies so does the shadow.

Shooting the coins out would work, the host would die along with the shadow, as it is unable to heal the host.

Going hive mind works as Tessa did, one of he subunits would be in physical contact with her coin, and the rest would have the shadow of her Denarian, it’s how she is able to control them, the shadow is doing it.

Marcone doesn’t have his Denarius implanted, he has it on a chain around his neck so he exposed this as a potential weakness to Harry without probably knowing it, Namshiel would have known to tell Marcone this, so Namshiel is holding things back. Alternatively Marcone does know but wants to be separate from Namshiel part of the time on his terms, (he wasn’t wearing the coin during the infamous locker room scene) to keep control over Namshiel.

Blood In His Stool would likely have had his coin implanted or ingested, so he would have survived for a considerable part of the process of being rendered into mincemeat, but at some point the coin would have separated from his conscious flesh killing him. Unless Sasquatch have a decentralised consciousness, like Tessa uses, at this point Blood would have died in Hades domain with Hades control over his ghost. The only things that Blood had to trade were the coin, and information. Hades physically had the coin, so Blood could only have traded information what was Nicky up to, his true target and long-term plans. Hades is a powerful god in in his own desmesne, he could have traded the release of Blood’s ghost. It is Blood’s ghost, making itself an ectoplasm body which has been seen. A Sasquatch Ghost must be immensely more powerful than a human ghost more in line with a spirit like Bob. I wonder if this is where the Wendigo myth would fit in? That Wendigo are Genowswa who have died possessing humans, shapechanging them back to their original form, adding ectoplasm to increase their bulk. If Blood knew this it is very much worth his while to bargain for his release, he has an option other souls don’t.

If so Blood would be diverting considerable power to keeping his ectoplasm body together, and would be vulnerable to the Dawn. Those are advantages Harry can exploit, especially with Mortimer’s help. However there may be an innocent mortal human inside creating a dilemma for Harry.

I think these two theories explain coherently how the coins have worked consistently in series and the Wendigo theory explains Blood being out and about. The latter makes sense and puts a new monster from myth into the Dresden canon. Bloods no longer a Genowskwa, he’s a Wendigo.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2022, 06:32:19 AM »
I don't think being in contact with your coin is foolproof - Eldest Gruff took out Magog still holding his coin, and his head on, and didn't several drown in the aquarium when Harry blasted the glass? They were not separated from their coins that we know of until they died.

Question on the Wendigo - if you lure it into a circle and activate.... the ectoplasm turns to goop, right? Have we seen evidence a Forest People can possess anything? They have been resistant to magic, but how much have we seen them USE it?  They may be so resistant they cannot manipulate it. Maybe it is a spirit and ALL ectoplasm? If so, Harry goes and sees Forthill, and comes out with the SuperSoaker of Doom.... 1 squirt banishes the ghost and dispels the ectoplasm... 

Offline g33k

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2022, 07:19:55 AM »
My thought is that for full symbiosis the coins have to be in contact with the host, if contact is broken you have the shadow until contact is resumed. As powerful as Lash was she couldn’t heal Harry, whereas Lasciel could have. Once the host dies so does the shadow...
Two points, here --
First, the host has to actually make a "deal with the devil," has to agree "I will work with you."  Details of the deal don't really matter; if the mortal agrees to work with the Fallen, they are a Knight of the Blackened Denarius.  It looks like you're correct, that contact is required:  recall that Cassius really really wanted to regain the Denarius he had lost; but I think you're wrong that they automatically have a Fallen-Shadow if they lose their coin, or Cassius would have been able to simply summon his coin.

Second -- Lash wasn't "powerful," except insofar as "knowledge is power."  She didn't really "exist" at all; she was like an imaginary-friend, and existed entirely as a facet of Harry's own mind:  unable to affect the real world except insofar as she could affect Harry's mind & covertly influence his judgmement; and/or overtly convince him to do things.  She had no power... she couldn't heal Harry... but she could have taught him how to heal himself.

Going hive mind works as Tessa did, one of he subunits would be in physical contact with her coin, and the rest would have the shadow of her Denarian, it’s how she is able to control them, the shadow is doing it.
My theory is different:  Imariel stuffs Tessa & the coin into a Nevernever demesne, and creates ectoplasmic bugs (maybe they exist there, and are summoned or sent to the mortal world).  Every bug remains connected to Imariel & the coin.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2022, 07:49:12 AM »
I hadn’t forgotten the summoning of the coin, Cassius repudiation wasn’t sincere like Sanya’s, and I suspect he would have tried to summon it. However his Fallen may have had other ideas, it may have been tired of Snakeboy, a low talent loser, and looking forward to a new host. It knew it was going to the Vatican meaning it would be back in circulation. I suspect his Fallen withdrew his shadow as the coin was being dropped, meaning Cassius couldn’t summon it. Snakeboy had embarrassed his Denarian and pride goeth before a Fall.

Shadows are involuntary Harry got it without agreement as would have Harry Carpenter, but up until loss of contact a Fallen can withdraw it. In Sanya’s case in dropping his coin there was no shadow. This was why Michael was so convinced Harry had to put aside his power, so Harry became worthless to the Denarian (in light of the whole Starborn thing I doubt that was the case, Michael was wrong).

Powerful as regards direct effect versus indirect effect Lash couldn’t have any effect outside of Harry’s head, inside it though she was powerful, saving Harry’s life numerous times, but unable to heal him. She could pull the equivalent of the Winter Knight ‘healing’ but that was it.

No sign of gateway to the Never Never when the transformation occurs.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2022, 08:06:14 AM »
I don't think being in contact with your coin is foolproof - Eldest Gruff took out Magog still holding his coin, and his head on, and didn't several drown in the aquarium when Harry blasted the glass? They were not separated from their coins that we know of until they died.

Question on the Wendigo - if you lure it into a circle and activate.... the ectoplasm turns to goop, right? Have we seen evidence a Forest People can possess anything? They have been resistant to magic, but how much have we seen them USE it?  They may be so resistant they cannot manipulate it. Maybe it is a spirit and ALL ectoplasm? If so, Harry goes and sees Forthill, and comes out with the SuperSoaker of Doom.... 1 squirt banishes the ghost and dispels the ectoplasm...

I didn’t say it was foolproof, the Fallen rely upon their mortal hosts for decisions, sometimes they panic and make poor decisions. Sometimes the Fallen may decide its time to end that particular partnership. They know a new host will present in short order.

Blood isn’t a forest person, he’s a Genowskwa, and yes he used veils extensively through Skin Game, so he can use magic. As such he should be able to do anything a human wizard can do and Corpsetaker could certainly pull off a possession.

Knowing what Blood is would be the puzzle and how to deal with it. Trapping him in a circle would only work if he tried to exit it, and probably not then if he limited himself physically to his human host, no ectoplasm.

The Sword of Faith would be a better solution able to inflict harm on Blood, but not his host. Ironically Blood is the Denarian in such a relationship but not tethered by a coin.

Offline g33k

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2022, 08:11:22 AM »
No sign of gateway to the Never Never when the transformation occurs.
We know that power & experience & aptitude all matter, in such things.  Time and again, Harry is impressed at how smoothly others open Ways.  He could barely even notice when Lily opened the Way to Arctis Tor; she certainly had less experience than Harry... but the Mantle gave her plenty of power and aptitude!

And we know that Angels -- fallen or not -- have power on a scale to dwarf the entire White Council, and experience to match.  Imariel certainly has some sorts of aptitudes, and demesne filled with horrific little bugs sounds right up his alley!

If nothing else, they could cast a "there is no gateway here" veil, to mask what they're doing;  remember Elaine's veil, in White Knight:  "there is nothing worth noticing or remembering about the person sitting here."  Again, well within the DV canon, and the scope of Fallen powers...

Offline morriswalters

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2022, 02:18:22 PM »
There is no indication in the text that anyone other than a Shadow can summon a coin.  Lash expected to be reabsorbed into Lasciel and feared that she would not take her back. Michael tells you  that the only  way to rid yourself of the Fallen is to take up the coin, accept the Fallen and then put the coin down. Accepting the Fallen removes the Shadow. Harry was a special case in that she was burned out of his brain.  Or so it seems.

Lash can effect physical reality.  She gave Harry access to Hellfire.  Nicodemus also assumes that she can paralyze Harry and tells her to do so in Small Favor. If Harry were unprepared she could make him do anything by executing a man in the middle attack where she feeds Harry the reality that she wants him to see. I suspect that this is the way LC was broken.

We know that Nicodemus's belief is founded in reality because Bonea takes takes control over Harry's autonomic nervous system to support his body while he is on a walkabout.

Could the old whats his name have escaped by opening a portal underneath the block.  Sure, Butcher does something similar in the fight in the Goblin's domain when he drops rock ectoplasm into the real world to escape being crushed during his fight.  In theory so could have Lasciel and Hannah. It's mentioned in the  text as a possibility.
Quote
“I figure Nicodemus had Lasciel and Ascher as his backup Way home,” I said. Ascher had been throwing Hellfire around. With a couple of weeks’ training from a good teacher, say a Fallen angel who could provide her with images and communicate directly in thought, she might have enough talent to learn how to manage a Way—but probably not from inside several hundred tons of molten rock. “Maybe the Genoskwa could have done it. But they’re out. That leaves one way for him to get back.”

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 400). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
But it feels like a cheat since old Nicky had to sneak out through Dresden's portal.  It also makes a farce of the vault as a plot gimmick.

Offline Mira

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2022, 05:15:33 PM »
Quote
There is no indication in the text that anyone other than a Shadow can summon a coin.  Lash expected to be reabsorbed into Lasciel and feared that she would not take her back. Michael tells you  that the only  way to rid yourself of the Fallen is to take up the coin, accept the Fallen and then put the coin down. Accepting the Fallen removes the Shadow. Harry was a special case in that she was burned out of his brain.  Or so it seems.

Not quite, Harry actually changed the Shadow of Lasciel into Lash, or by knowing him and falling in love, she changed.  Then she willingly sacrificed herself to save Harry, it was a struggle to the end if you will recall.  Lash begged Harry to save himself by taking the coin, he refused in the name of freedom among other things.  In the end she agreed and gained her own freedom in death.  That is why Harry is so unique and why he attracted the attention of Heaven and got soul fire, something like that had never happened before.

Offline g33k

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2022, 10:37:33 PM »
There is no indication in the text that anyone other than a Shadow can summon a coin.
A "Shadow" isn't an "anyone" -- they need to work within the abilities of the host, adding only their Fallen knowledge.  The Church's inability to keep hold of any of the Coins suggests that some may be being summoned out from their hiding places (sure, there is corruption and some people are releasing the Coins who shouldn't; but the problem is so ubiquitous and long-term, I think Coin-summoning is a component).

It's possible that any given Fallen can summon any Denarius, if the Fallen in that coin is willing to be summoned (they gotta be willing; otherwise, it'd be the go-to tactic in their incessant internecine squabbling) .

... Michael tells you  that the only way to rid yourself of the Fallen is to take up the coin, accept the Fallen and then put the coin down ...
We know that the Denarians periodically raid the Church to destroy records concerning themselves, and Harry himself points out in that same conversation how Michael can't possibly "know" these sorts of limitations; he may in fact be correct, but he may also be mistaken.

... Harry was a special case in that she was burned out of his brain ...
And yet, the real Lasciel seemed to know about Bonea, which suggests that a Shadow's destruction within a wizard's mind is a known phenomenon.  Also, I think there was a WoJ saying that Bob was created the same way as Bonea.

... Lash can effect physical reality.  She gave Harry access to Hellfire.  Nicodemus also assumes that she can paralyze Harry and tells her to do so in Small Favor. If Harry were unprepared she could make him do anything by executing a man in the middle attack where she feeds Harry the reality that she wants him to see ...
A Shadow is limited entirely to "acting" through their host; for example, manipulating their perceptions, nudging their subconscious, etc.  Getting the host to act.  But also, overtly convincing the host.

Hellfire, like Soulfire, is something humans -- wizards, that is -- can all access.  They just have to be shown how.  The Shadow snuck it in through Harry's subconscious; he never consciously learned, it just "showed up."  Uriel "jostled" Harry's spell-casting; nudged it into a slightly-different channel, which showed him how to do it for himself.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2022, 11:36:06 PM »
We know that power & experience & aptitude all matter, in such things.  Time and again, Harry is impressed at how smoothly others open Ways.  He could barely even notice when Lily opened the Way to Arctis Tor; she certainly had less experience than Harry... but the Mantle gave her plenty of power and aptitude!

And we know that Angels -- fallen or not -- have power on a scale to dwarf the entire White Council, and experience to match.  Imariel certainly has some sorts of aptitudes, and demesne filled with horrific little bugs sounds right up his alley!

If nothing else, they could cast a "there is no gateway here" veil, to mask what they're doing;  remember Elaine's veil, in White Knight:  "there is nothing worth noticing or remembering about the person sitting here."  Again, well within the DV canon, and the scope of Fallen powers...

And yet Nick borrowed Harry specifically to open a gateway.

Bob was created in a similar way but not a Fallen as a parent. His origin of what we know is from Winter, the closest match to someone like Lasciel is the Leansidhe who traditionally acts as a muse gifting creative insight to young men which ends in their early death. She may create the equivalent of the shadow to do that, the early death may be due to trying to give birth to a spirit of intellect. I suspect not all are strong enough to survive both, dying with their parent. Some are strong enough to rip a way out.

We have been told in a WOJ that we have met both Bob’s parents, and Bob’s reaction to Lea is like an overexcited toddler, at a time when his is hiding from Winter. Lea would have had the knowledge how to kill an immortal which Bob would have inherited.

Bob’s “mom” we have also met so they survived that birth so a wizard is a possibility and there are few wizard characters that age,  the Gatekeeper certainly and the British Prisoner probably. I favour the latter, (Demonreach may be the only way to escape his ex) but what if Rashid gave up his eye to allow Bob to egress his head?

Similar and same are not the same thing.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 11:55:48 PM by Conspiracy Theorist »

Offline forumghost

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2022, 01:45:41 AM »
And yet, the real Lasciel seemed to know about Bonea, which suggests that a Shadow's destruction within a wizard's mind is a known phenomenon.  Also, I think there was a WoJ saying that Bob was created the same way as Bonea.

Wasn't that because Harry told Murphy about her when Nick was listening in?

Offline Ed0517

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2022, 02:32:25 AM »

Could the old whats his name have escaped by opening a portal underneath the block.  Sure, Butcher does something similar in the fight in the Goblin's domain when he drops rock ectoplasm into the real world to escape being crushed during his fight.  In theory so could have Lasciel and Hannah. It's mentioned in the  text as a possibility.But it feels like a cheat since old Nicky had to sneak out through Dresden's portal.  It also makes a farce of the vault as a plot gimmick.

Maybe Ascher is bad at portals. Remember Harry was real bad at veils until he retrained himself to teach Molly, and even then he was not that good. He told Charity some practitioners are better than others at some things. Molly, almost from the start, was better at mind magic and veils are likely clouding the mind.. and in ghost Story she says it would be much easier defending Chicago if she had Harry's raw power to just kill creatures and break things. Granted, we did not SEE her squashed/burned body, but...   

Offline Mira

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Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2022, 11:01:51 AM »
Wasn't that because Harry told Murphy about her when Nick was listening in?

More than likely, also we don't know exactly when the Shadow of Lasciel got it on with Harry's alter ego.  Up until her complete break, which was just at the end when she sacrificed herself for Harry, Lash was still in contact with the coin.  Let's not forget her final try to get Harry to accept the coin in White Night, so Lasciel would have known about the sex, most likely encouraged it, and yes, knew about the pregnancy as well.