Coins and Choices

[Mira]

There's a few supposed Spears out there, claiming to be the real one. Unconquerable? Then I guess the one the Holy Roman Empire had wasn't real.... some also say the power is in seeing the future, not necessarily winning...  else, wouldn't Harry have just had to show up and stick it in Ethniu? Harry can't be conquered then, right? But maybe Harry thinks that, and the Spear telepathically tells him, "Nope. Try it and die. Come up with a Plan B" but doesn;'t tell him what to do.

According to the series, there is a Shroud copy, so why not a Spear Copy?  As to Harry, in the end Ethniu didn't conquer him, it was the other way around.  It wasn't pretty, he had a lot of help, but he won, that is the point.. The legend surrounding the Spear doesn't claim that winning would be without sacrifice.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The superweapons are supposed to be far older than Christianity repurposed for a different task  the Shroud for example may have been the Golden Fleece. Copies were made of these relics of course and obtained veneration becoming powerful to a degree in their own right, and these copies themself turn up under different names.

The Grail would likely have put in Hades safekeeping by Merlin in the 5th Century AD, it strikes me a canny chap like Merlin may have created a fake and put it back into circulation so as not to draw attention to it being out of circulation and did the same with the other superweapons, as and when they were collected (probably by Merlin). Merlin had Excalibur, so would have been able to imbue his fakes with a patina of its godly power, which Harry recognised as being the same as the Swords in Skin Game.

[Mira]

The superweapons are supposed to be far older than Christianity repurposed for a different task  the Shroud for example may have been the Golden Fleece. Copies were made of these relics of course and obtained veneration becoming powerful to a degree in their own right, and these copies themself turn up under different names.

Metaphorically perhaps, but there is a huge difference between a sheep's skin and woven linen.

The Grail would likely have put in Hades safekeeping by Merlin in the 5th Century AD, it strikes me a canny chap like Merlin may have created a fake and put it back into circulation so as not to draw attention to it being out of circulation and did the same with the other superweapons, as and when they were collected (probably by Merlin). Merlin had Excalibur, so would have been able to imbue his fakes with a patina of its godly power, which Harry recognised as being the same as the Swords in Skin Game.

Fakes can gain power because of people's faith in them.. However remember what Hades said about who eventually gains access to the real thing, has to demonstrate that they have the power and smarts to wield them.  So Merlin wouldn't need fakes, he had both power and smarts to use them as needed.  The search for the Grail gave his protege, King Arthur a focus to unite and rally his knights and people around.  It was found as the story goes, but lost again.  Harry has them now, but by the end of the series I bet all of the Artifacts will return to the vault, including the Grail.  Nic's plan backfired, he got what he asked for, but not the Artifact he wanted..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The fakes were decoys for people to chase after when the real things were carefully locked away.

[Mira]

The fakes were decoys for people to chase after when the real things were carefully locked away.

To what purpose?  All that would accomplish is destroy faith.

[hiddendotgif]

I personally don't think Merlin would have hidden them away- but I also wouldn't put it past him.
If he had and used the artifacts, he knows just how powerful they can be. I imagine that Nic may have the smarts to use them, else he wouldn't search for them. Therefore, locking them up may be smart, as Merlin knew he wouldn't be around forever.

[Mira]

I personally don't think Merlin would have hidden them away- but I also wouldn't put it past him.
If he had and used the artifacts, he knows just how powerful they can be. I imagine that Nic may have the smarts to use them, else he wouldn't search for them. Therefore, locking them up may be smart, as Merlin knew he wouldn't be around forever.

No, I don't think Merlin would have hidden the Artifacts either, if they were needed to be wielded and he had obtained them, he would have used them.  I also think that once they were used to whatever effect he intended to use them, he would have seen that they were returned to the Vault, until they were needed and someone came forth who demonstrated by getting them was worthy of using them. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

To what purpose?  All that would accomplish is destroy faith.

It promoted not destroyed faith, look at the power the fake Shroud accrued, locking the superweapons away was the safe thing, they were clearly on Nicky’s watch list for example, but it would allow faith to wither. Putting the fakes out there not only protected the superweapons, but allowed Faith to grow as people saw glimpses of them out in the World.

Besides, Turin was quite nice at that time of the year, and Merlin needed a holiday.

[Mira]

It promoted not destroyed faith, look at the power the fake Shroud accrued, locking the superweapons away was the safe thing, they were clearly on Nicky’s watch list for example, but it would allow faith to wither. Putting the fakes out there not only protected the superweapons, but allowed Faith to grow as people saw glimpses of them out in the World.

Besides, Turin was quite nice at that time of the year, and Merlin needed a holiday.

The Shroud was one item, too many of them the people soon figure out they are fakes, end faith..
The superweapons don't need protection, they are in the vault when not in use.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

One fake of each item, having them in circulation stops the wrong sort of people wondering where they are and how they can get at them.

Basically the plot of Skin Game.

Turn it around, Marcone essential to getting access to the superweapons was a Denarian all along, exactly the wrong person (having previously had the fake Shroud stolen order) to know anything about their possible location. By the time of Skin Game there is no longer a need to rely on the fakes as the real things are coming back into the mortal world.

[Mira]

Turn it around, Marcone essential to getting access to the superweapons was a Denarian all along, exactly the wrong person (having previously had the fake Shroud stolen order) to know anything about their possible location. By the time of Skin Game there is no longer a need to rely on the fakes as the real things are coming back into the mortal world.

Actually we don't know if Marcone was a Denarian yet as of Skin Game.  Since the fakes as you call them didn't have near the power of the real thing, they never could be relied on.  Yes, Harry felt some power coming from the duplicate Shroud back in Death Masks, it didn't have any effect on the girl/young woman that Marcone had wounded.  Also it was nothing like the power he felt coming from  the real thing in Skin Game, nor do I think a imitation Spear would have the same effect when Harry was mentally binding Ethniu as the real thing..  Placebos are powerful to be sure, but do not take the place of the real thing.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Exactly, it’s why you have fakes in circulation, Merlin used them to accrete faith and become closer to the real thing making the unwary think they were the real thing. He always had the option of exposing them as a fake to debunk them. That’s what he did with the Cottingley Fairies, allowing Toot and his Ilk another century out of the limelight, until the development of Pizza S‘Press. When one is a time traveller there is all sorts of sheninghans you can get up to, faking as well as making history.

[Mira]

Exactly, it’s why you have fakes in circulation, Merlin used them to accrete faith and become closer to the real thing making the unwary think they were the real thing. He always had the option of exposing them as a fake to debunk them. That’s what he did with the Cottingley Fairies, allowing Toot and his Ilk another century out of the limelight, until the development of Pizza S‘Press. When one is a time traveller there is all sorts of sheninghans you can get up to, faking as well as making history.

Sorry, just don't buy any of that...

[Snark Knight]

3- I don't know if it's been said how durable the coins are. I don't imagine they're indestructible, so what would happen to the Fallen if the coin were destroyed? Alternatively, if the coins are instead highly durable, what non-conventional uses could they serve? I was thinking a magical bullet of sorts; Harry and his kinetic energy storing and such could release it on the coin, with no need for gunpowder or fancy bullets.

They're supernaturally durable to some extent. There's a WOJ on it somewhere in the archives to the effect that successfully destroying the coin would free the Fallen inside from its material prison, which would be bad. But none of their enemies in 2,000 years who have got hold of a coin dropped by a dead host and mistakenly thought that melting it would be a win have managed to pull it off.

It's unclear whether Lucifer created the coins personally, but WOJ mentioned he chose the 30 'elite of Hell' most likely to stab him in the back to go into them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Even Harry didn’t consider destruction. Even Harry.

The Fallen are to some degree capable of change when interacting with a human, I wonder what would have happened to Lasciel if she reunited with Lash, who had learned to love Harry?

In most cases the host is either dominated or in total agreement with the Fallen in either case this does not result in change. Namshiel/Marcone is going to be interesting Marcone won’t be dominated, nor are they in total agreement.

This ability to change may explain why one or more of the Fallen have thrown in their lot with the Black Council, plus their basic untrustworthiness, they partnered up with a human who couldn’t be dominated and with whom they were not in total accord, instead over time they changed their minds to follow the human agenda.

I theorise one of the reasons Nicky destroys records of the Denarians is that he doesn’t want people to know he doesn’t control all thirty, and he set up his wife’s faction as semi-loyal to hide this from the majority of the Denarians themselves, everyone in Nicky’s faction thinks x-iel is part of the other faction which is why they never see them, everyone in the other faction thinks x-iel is part of Nicky faction which is why they never see them. We have never seen anything like the full thirty assembled.

We may have seen x-iel or at least his host, the Fallen can keep hidden especially well, Harry may have fought him and not even realised he was facing a Denarian, Cowl for example is a likely candidate, he never pressed Cowl hard enough for him to draw on Hellfire in their battles. Cowl however knew Harry possessed Bob, who had the Word, if Justin was a previous host x-iel would know this. It always bothered me that Cowl knew about Bob when only Justin, Elaine and Harry knew this, so Cowl must have found out from Elaine, unless there was another being present all the time. Everyone goes with the Elaine-Kumori theory, but if she was bound to Summer at the time of Grave Peril, it’s unlikely given how we have subsequently seen how Winter binds.


Harry may be the first person in over a millennia to realise there is a third faction, it may only be one or two members and they are working with the Black Council and Anduriel cannot spy on them. Now there is a fourth.