Author Topic: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)  (Read 27079 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2022, 05:11:53 AM »
The evidence for that is in my opinion is the fact that she apparently knew the significance of on and how to conceive of one.  Now it is possible I guess that it was Lord Raith that was pushing her for this.  Wouldn't he have loved a star born child that he could use as a weapon? Provided of course it was female, a male child especially a star born one would have been seen as a threat.  So I don't think that happened, and while the idea of star born children may be general knowledge, the details of how to conceive one is another matter.  Apparently the Senior Council has this knowledge, Eb wasn't a member at that time, but as Blackstaff with the job perhaps of taking one out from time to time, he'd need the knowledge.  I think the real reason the Merlin wanted Eb to observe and possibly wipe out young Harry wasn't because he feared he'd revert to warlock, but because he knew Harry was star born.  And just how did that know this?  I mean they may have had Harry's birthday, but did they have the other information about him?  That tells me they knew very well what Margaret had done, and had been a part of it at one time.
I think several parties want their own star born. But were they trying to make one or did they luck out when they found one? Considering their were around 50k at Harry's birth, it isn't like there wasn't a plethora to choose from. Given some comments made by Jim about how the White Council is so out-gunned and desperate for fire power, I wonder if they wouldn't normally have allowed a star born to exist (think about Morgan's diary entry - he finds it abhorrent that a "Destroyer" should be born and the Merlin wished to execute Harry, and Morgan was one of the top hatchet men for the job) but once presented with the opportunity some wished to exploit this potential weapon. Was it happenstance or planning by the White Council? I don't doubt Raith was involved in trying to get a star born of course, considering his involvement around that time. I don't know that Raith needed a child as much as a slave, so I am not sure the gender mattered much. I think we are both in agreement on the real reasons Eb was to watch (and potentially execute) Harry. The White Council knowing about it is still fairly removed from them planning and/or orchestrating it (although I wouldn't put it past certain rogue elements to be involved like Justin and/or potentially Simon). I just don't see Margaret Le Fay, legendary White Council rebel, working with her organisation that she was on the run from.

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Is it?  I mean several characters have come out and called Harry a star born without much trouble. Harry doesn't have a tat too on his forehead proclaiming it, so without additional information how did they know?  Now HWWB didn't seem to have any trouble, though he didn't come right out and call him a star born.  Do Outsiders make a habit of visiting and checking out possible star born confidantes?
Well, Maeve could have known due to her Fae knowledge or via Mab, or perhaps being of two-worlds she can just "see" it. But she also was infected by Nemesis, and I am sure Nemesis (like any Outsider) can spot a star born instantly. The Erlking has similar reasons in that he is Fae (and potentially an ex-god), and that Mab may have informed him, and he also knew Maggie. Apart from Outsiders I can't think of who else has called Harry star born. Obviously Eb and senior wizards know, but were they told or can they see something with the Sight? Something most wouldn't recognise. River Shoulders knows (and I guarantee Blood-on-his-Soul also knows) but I would tie that in to what they are. Drakul is a star born himself, so he might recognise his own kind, but he also seems very clued in. I am sure He Who Walks Behind knew exactly what Harry is, just like the other Walkers and other Outsiders. I also suspect gods and angels, and perhaps some demons, certainly the Fallen would also know. Look at the interest Harry gets from these beings. Certainly above normal. I am curious if Alfred knows (or cares). I also wonder if the Naagloshii knew...given what they were I would lean towards yes but it did seem puzzled by Harry's soulfire. I know not all star born would have that but still. 

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But Harry has always known since White Knight that he was different because of how his mother and father conceived him, he had power over Outsiders.  Also from the soul gaze with Thomas, Margaret told him that it might be unfair the burden her and his father placed on him.  Also in Harry's vision/dream of Malcolm, he repeated what Margaret said.  As late as Peace Talks Eb told Harry he can deal with Outsiders, yet Harry hasn't used that knowledge to go Outsider hunting.
So he knows quite a bit, but unless there is some more to the huge reveal, why not tell him?  I think a lot of people will have a lot to answer for once Harry knows, that is why no one is sitting him down and telling him the whole truth.. I include the Winter Court in that, I think they had a lot to do with why Margaret ultimately made her decision.. Andthat'swhy Harry is really going to be pissed at Lea for becoming his godmother, he is going to be pissed at the whole Winter Court.. Hell yeah, he will feel used and abused in the typical fashion that only Harry Dresden can feel.. ::)
Is it to do with how he is conceived? I believe Ebenezar says it's about where the child is born that matters i.e. in the celestial light from the conjunction. If she hadn't birthed him in that light it might not have done anything. To be fair to Harry, he only found out a small bit of information about himself and what he is and part of what that means in Peace Talks. He hasn't really had an opportunity to really test out that strength (although we've seen it in action against the Walkers and other Outsiders of course). It's not an ultimate weapon, it just means he can get them where most beings struggle to. Doesn't mean he can lay them all out (at least for now).

Well I would have thought it was obvious there is going to be a huge reveal. That's been hinted at since the beginning. In more recent interviews though Jim has said we are not going to know everything until the very end of the BAT, which makes sense. He's got books to sell after all. I agree that it's frustrating and sometimes stretches belief, but Jim will have his reasons. Time will tell if those in-universe reasons make sense or not.

And yes, he is going to feel very betrayed by everyone (especially Margaret). But that's all part of the fun!

Not Winter, Lea. Not everything Lea does is on behalf of Winter.

The deal Lea made with Harry was with her, not Winter. It’s transfer to Winter was part of the price Lea paid to be free of Nemesis. This doesn’t mean that the deal Lea made with Margaret was with Winter, or part of the price Lea paid. Harry was not part of that deal, he cut his own with Lea.

What did Mab get with it eventually ? A competent Winter Knight and Winter Lady. There is nothing else she needs. Lea’s deal with Margaret if about Maggie, is not about Winter, it’s about Lea, and as such neither Mab nor Molly will interfere as it her personal business, not Winters Business.

We will I  think see a Battle Royale between Harry and Lea at some point, the problem is Lea is immortal, Harry is not. It may be this is what gets Harry to release Ethnui, to take in Lea, and bring her to Demonreach. We haven’t seen Lea take on Ethnui, she was at the Gates during the Battle of Chicago, and we have had foreshadowing of the release of Ethnui.

And Mab will sit back and do nothing.
Do you really think Lea does everything she does just for Winter? I believe in Changes she says that even she doesn't owe Mab so much to take out the Red Court for her, but wanted to anyway for their attack on Harry (and his child) - although whether that was the whole story is another thing. Lea is all about power. I suspect she very dearly wishes to supplant Mab - she called Mab her dearest enemy once. Lea isn't necessarily a good guy. How do you think Lea and Margaret met after all? They met when Maggie was becoming buddies with people like Raith and Arianna and Nicodemus...I'd say Lea is out for herself as much as anything.

I believe Jim did say that there would be a show down one day with Lea and Harry, but he also may have backtracked and said he might have missed his moment for it. He's still going to be very angry with Lea when he finds out the terms of the deal, I am sure. Lea isn't immortal though. Nigh-immortal like all Fae. But she isn't an Immortal as far as I am aware. She can't come back if she is destroyed. She can be killed if her defences are breached on any night of the year, not just Halloween (which only applies to capital-I Immortals).

Lea would have been curbstomped by Ethniu. In seconds. Even without the Eye. Even without Titanic Bronze. Ethniu is an order of magnitude greater than Mab. Mab. Mab is an order of magnitude above Lea. Lea is powerful and dangerous. But it would be like watching Tyson Fury take on a small, blind child. Consider also that Titania was stronger than Mab during the Battle of Chicago, and both got stomped. Along with essentially everyone else who tried to match it with her.

I don't think Ethniu can attack Harry once bound. The most she can do is try and break his will, pitting hers against his, just like she did when he was binding her. Which Harry might lose. But he might not either, he's done it before. Both of them were tired and weakened. Not sure how a full-strength match up would go, especially while Harry is on Demonreach. Then again, Harry thought it was a very dangerous and bad idea too.

Harry would have no problems binding Lea if she were in a circle. Certainly no issues while on Demonreach. But neutral territory might be a different thing. I would use Cold Iron myself in such circumstances.   

I don't know the range Harry could control Ethniu over (assuming he can do it at all). But Vadderung has said everything has limits e.g. things get weaker and require more energy over distance (like the attack on Demonreach that he discusses with Harry in Cold Days). My guess is Harry would need to be fairly close to her regardless, and even then I doubt he could do it beyond Chicago. The Nevernever might be a different story though - the rules are a bit different there. But Ethniu is probably stronger there too...

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Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2022, 11:31:03 AM »
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Is it to do with how he is conceived?

In White Night Lash Harry;

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"it's the why he was born."

Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds way more complicated that finding the right place at the
right time to give birth.  It takes planning, time of conception and matter of conception is very much a part of that.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2022, 02:28:01 PM »
Was Listen conceived and born to order? If so by whom and who were HIS parents. I have hypothesised he is a scion, mortal enough to qualify.

Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2022, 10:37:49 PM »
Was Listen conceived and born to order? If so by whom and who were HIS parents. I have hypothesised he is a scion, mortal enough to qualify.

Even if he is a scion, that's even more planned, unless it is rape, but I guess you could call that planned as well.  No, I think Listen was born a star born vanilla human who the Fomor kidnapped and altered over time to have gills etc.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2022, 11:04:10 PM »
In White Night Lash Harry;

Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds way more complicated that finding the right place at the
right time to give birth.  It takes planning, time of conception and matter of conception is very much a part of that.

Magic is generally inherited from the female line and exposure to talent prebirth.

I rather think the deal with Maggie Sr is that she mastered the Ways young enough as a woman to guarantee a wizard-level offspring born whenever she picked via time manipulation via the Ways. The trick is a starborn with metaphysical capabilities. Since the Fomor favored the talented for their modification, I suspect Listens happens to have Paranet level talent. Maggie was still fertile when she attained that level of Ways mastery, and as a female wizard could guarantee foetal exposure to high level magical energy.

But Harry has a big, big talent. And not by chance. I think Maggie hacked the process, and her amulet represents the ability to create an army of starborn wizards next time around.Therefore, it's dangerous and the Merlin will want it smashed.

I think Thomas was a test run, with Valentine's picked for sentimental reasons. He might represent a 5 month objective 9 month subjective pregnancy kind of situation, as could Harry. Or vice versa- 9 month subjective 5 year objective.

Also, @Yuillegan, I think Edinborough represents the Erlking's old digs- his contribution to Odin's pet project.

Typed on mobile, sorry

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2022, 10:57:22 AM »
In White Night Lash Harry;

Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds way more complicated that finding the right place at the right time to give birth.  It takes planning, time of conception and matter of conception is very much a part of that.
Well if we play out the idea that Margaret intended Harry to be a star born, the logic says she must have known a) what star born are (otherwise why bother), b) when the star born conjunction was going to occur and where the light would shine on Earth, c) any sort of preparation/sanctification of Harry that may have been required prior to his birth.

Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.

The more simple explanation is she got the information in her travels (in particular with Lord Raith and his big library that has made Lara turn from a manipulative politician to an expansionist drawing all available power to her, the same library that convinced Lord Raith to become a player in this cycle). But she then did the unexpected and ran away and used the information for her own goals, and not the goals of her previous allies.

In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?

Magic is generally inherited from the female line and exposure to talent prebirth.

I rather think the deal with Maggie Sr is that she mastered the Ways young enough as a woman to guarantee a wizard-level offspring born whenever she picked via time manipulation via the Ways. The trick is a starborn with metaphysical capabilities. Since the Fomor favored the talented for their modification, I suspect Listens happens to have Paranet level talent. Maggie was still fertile when she attained that level of Ways mastery, and as a female wizard could guarantee foetal exposure to high level magical energy.

But Harry has a big, big talent. And not by chance. I think Maggie hacked the process, and her amulet represents the ability to create an army of starborn wizards next time around.Therefore, it's dangerous and the Merlin will want it smashed.

I think Thomas was a test run, with Valentine's picked for sentimental reasons. He might represent a 5 month objective 9 month subjective pregnancy kind of situation, as could Harry. Or vice versa- 9 month subjective 5 year objective.

Also, @Yuillegan, I think Edinborough represents the Erlking's old digs- his contribution to Odin's pet project.

Typed on mobile, sorry
But why go to the effort? Margaret's bloodline was already strong enough (and has Ebenezar in it before her, and potentially dates back to the original Merlin). She didn't need to shop around as she had all the power she needed in her bloodline to produce such a strong wizard.

I don't think that there is some grand conspiracy with choosing Malcolm. I think she chose Malcolm for the simplest yet most mysterious reason of all: love.

This is how she had the strength to escape Lord Raith. She fell in love. So Raith no longer held power over her. And she fled to protect her new love, and perhaps her soon-to-be-born offspring.

I am very confused about the Erlking being linked to Edinburgh. The second Merlin won it off a Sidhe lord - the Erlking is a (the) goblin lord (and stronger than almost any Sidhe bar the Queen and possibly Lea and Eldest Gruff).
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Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2022, 11:59:53 AM »
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Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.

No, she was no fool, but from the way Lash words it when she tells Harry about it says she was being set up to be the little star mother.  I will wager it was because of qualities she had.
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In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?

My answer to that is something Jim said years ago when asked about Elaine and Harry.  Paraphrasing because I cannot remember the exact WOJ, but he said those born at that
particular time have the potentialto be star born, which is a lot different from being
star born.  Again I used the example of Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom, both were born
under the same circumstances to become "the boy who lived," actually if I remember the story
correctly it should have been Nevil, but it was Voldermort that screwed up and went after the wrong baby.   So what I am saying is if we go by that old WOJ, if I'm remembering it correctly, fifty thousand born under that light and alignment of stars have the potential to be star born, but out
of that number, very few actually grow up to be one. 

Margaret also knew she and her baby would be targeted, thus she made arrangements with the Winter Court and Harry ended up with a real fairy godmother.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #112 on: March 10, 2022, 01:18:23 PM »
Margaret made an arrangement with Lea, not the Winter Court, subtle difference. If it was a personal agreement Mab will stand back and let Harry be Harry. If Winter had been formally involved this might be construed as a move by Winter on the White Council, instead it was an agreement between individuals.

Harry’s own agreement with Lea was personal to her UNTIL Mab took over the agreement as part of the price for a cure. Harry wasn’t going to go to the White Council to help him, and Mab could still claim this was personal between her and Harry, Mab had a claim, not Winter. That ended when Harry accepted Winters offer and became Winter Knight.

Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #113 on: March 10, 2022, 04:17:53 PM »
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Margaret made an arrangement with Lea, not the Winter Court, subtle difference. If it was a personal agreement Mab will stand back and let Harry be Harry. If Winter had been formally involved this might be construed as a move by Winter on the White Council, instead it was an agreement between individuals.

I'm not totally convinced of that, I think the godmother bit is pretty significant, also the Winter Court is in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates.  So that kind of move in my opinion doesn't happen without passing muster with Mab.  Why would it have to be seen as a move on the White Council by the Winter Court?  To quote Rashid who plays a significant role both on the Senior Council of the White Council and in the Winter Court as the Gate Keeper as one of the main generals keeping the Outsiders at bay.. "What the White Council doesn't know won't hurt it.."
So I wouldn't be shocked if the White Council is totally ignorant that Lea is Harry's godmother.
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Harry’s own agreement with Lea was personal to her UNTIL Mab took over the agreement as part of the price for a cure. Harry wasn’t going to go to the White Council to help him, and Mab could still claim this was personal between her and Harry, Mab had a claim, not Winter. That ended when Harry accepted Winters offer and became Winter Knight.
Um, Mab is Winter, and I doubt it was personal, if Harry was just your ordinary Joe, who's mother made some kind of bargain with Lea, you'd be right, and I doubt that Mab would be interested.  But Harry isn't, Mab knows it, has known it from the time he was a mere gleam in Malcolm's eye, she plays the long game and as a result, got herself a star born as her Winter Knight with the BAT approaching.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #114 on: March 10, 2022, 06:30:05 PM »
Monarchs have their official sovereign capacity and their personal capacity. So yes, Mab can contract in either capacity. When Harry started being useful to her she made sure she took over Lea’s deal over Harry, literally freezing her our. Everything Lea has done since then for Harry was by Mab after Harry became Winter Knight, part of her duties to her liege..

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #115 on: March 10, 2022, 10:28:20 PM »
Well if we play out the idea that Margaret intended Harry to be a star born, the logic says she must have known a) what star born are (otherwise why bother), b) when the star born conjunction was going to occur and where the light would shine on Earth, c) any sort of preparation/sanctification of Harry that may have been required prior to his birth.

Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.

The more simple explanation is she got the information in her travels (in particular with Lord Raith and his big library that has made Lara turn from a manipulative politician to an expansionist drawing all available power to her, the same library that convinced Lord Raith to become a player in this cycle). But she then did the unexpected and ran away and used the information for her own goals, and not the goals of her previous allies.

In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?
But why go to the effort? Margaret's bloodline was already strong enough (and has Ebenezar in it before her, and potentially dates back to the original Merlin). She didn't need to shop around as she had all the power she needed in her bloodline to produce such a strong wizard.

I don't think that there is some grand conspiracy with choosing Malcolm. I think she chose Malcolm for the simplest yet most mysterious reason of all: love.

This is how she had the strength to escape Lord Raith. She fell in love. So Raith no longer held power over her. And she fled to protect her new love, and perhaps her soon-to-be-born offspring.

I am very confused about the Erlking being linked to Edinburgh. The second Merlin won it off a Sidhe lord - the Erlking is a (the) goblin lord (and stronger than almost any Sidhe bar the Queen and possibly Lea and Eldest Gruff).

Think you crossed some arguments.

Maggie was part of a plot to engineer a dangerous, uber-strong wizard starborn. Rather than walk away, she threw a wrench in the process by having such a child with Malcolm- breeding aside, Malcolm also raised Harry. Eb said Malcolm has a soul like few he'd ever seen- after meeting Michael. Also would neatly explain why Harry adopted Michael as a pseudofather so quickly.

The goblins are Wyldfae. Ir's why the Erlking is a Summer King, like Kringle is winter. Erlking is lord of the bloodsport that is the hunt in summer, as Kringle embodies the warmth and family coming together to survive side of Winter.

Wyldfae means Fae. Summer King implies Sidhe. Herne the Hunter is geographically close. And his Nevernever digs were similar tunnels, as I recall.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #116 on: March 10, 2022, 11:09:47 PM »
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"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.

If Margaret  was enthralled to Raith and fell in love with Malcolm that might have broke her free of Raith since he wouldn't have been able to touch her.   He introduced the idea of time passing at different rates in the Never Never  so it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  He(Butcher) has also dropped a lot weird bread crumbs like Margaret and Malcolm visiting the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. That may have been where Harry was born (In DC).

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2022, 06:26:47 AM »
No, she was no fool, but from the way Lash words it when she tells Harry about it says she was being set up to be the little star mother.  I will wager it was because of qualities she had.

My answer to that is something Jim said years ago when asked about Elaine and Harry.  Paraphrasing because I cannot remember the exact WOJ, but he said those born at that particular time have the potentialto be star born, which is a lot different from being star born.  Again I used the example of Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom, both were born  under the same circumstances to become "the boy who lived," actually if I remember the story correctly it should have been Nevil, but it was Voldermort that screwed up and went after the wrong baby.   So what I am saying is if we go by that old WOJ, if I'm remembering it correctly, fifty thousand born under that light and alignment of stars have the potential to be star born, but out of that number, very few actually grow up to be one. 

Margaret also knew she and her baby would be targeted, thus she made arrangements with the Winter Court and Harry ended up with a real fairy godmother.
If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?

The quote that Morris provides is the one I believe you are referring to. For your theory to really work, Harry has to be more special than any other star born. A special star born. Which I grant is possible. Harry could be some Chosen One of a prophecy. But we haven't heard any references to a prophecy or that Harry is chosen. The Chosen One thing is very much a fate thing, yet the series is constantly underlining the importance of choice. While fate and chance are not mutually exclusive necessarily it does make it harder to reconcile.

The other thing to consider is if the 50,000 only have the potential to become star born then when was it that Harry became a star born if not his birth? Was it his first encounter with He Who Walks Behind? Was it earlier? That too has never really been discussed, because to me Harry has been one his whole life since birth. If anything, the hint is that he has the potential to undergo some sort of transformation in the future, not that he has already undergone one.

The other thing about the phrase "star born" is that it literally implies being born from the stars. So becoming a star born from the moment of birth would make sense rather than at some other point.

I'm not totally convinced of that, I think the godmother bit is pretty significant, also the Winter Court is in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates.  So that kind of move in my opinion doesn't happen without passing muster with Mab.  Why would it have to be seen as a move on the White Council by the Winter Court?  To quote Rashid who plays a significant role both on the Senior Council of the White Council and in the Winter Court as the Gate Keeper as one of the main generals keeping the Outsiders at bay.. "What the White Council doesn't know won't hurt it.."
So I wouldn't be shocked if the White Council is totally ignorant that Lea is Harry's godmother.

Um, Mab is Winter, and I doubt it was personal, if Harry was just your ordinary Joe, who's mother made some kind of bargain with Lea, you'd be right, and I doubt that Mab would be interested.  But Harry isn't, Mab knows it, has known it from the time he was a mere gleam in Malcolm's eye, she plays the long game and as a result, got herself a star born as her Winter Knight with the BAT approaching.
I believe Lea says that even Mab cannot gainsay her deals - which is clearly partly how Lea has gained so much personal power. Every Fae clearly has the right to their own deals. Toot-toot made his own personal deal with Harry, for example, which has massively increased his personal power.

I think part of the appeal of the deal to claim Harry by Lea was to one-up her position against Mab. Remember they are not friends. Frenemies might be a better term. So in many ways Mab getting Harry as her knight was balancing the scales, and then some.

The White Council know many things they shouldn't, yet then again no one has ever mentioned that deal (and you think they would when trying to paint Harry as a bad guy). So I am inclined to agree that the Council at large are unaware of Harry and Lea's various deals. Although Eb does keep a pretty close eye on Harry, and I wouldn't be surprised if he knew given his own connections with Lea.

Monarchs have their official sovereign capacity and their personal capacity. So yes, Mab can contract in either capacity. When Harry started being useful to her she made sure she took over Lea’s deal over Harry, literally freezing her our. Everything Lea has done since then for Harry was by Mab after Harry became Winter Knight, part of her duties to her liege..
I think you might be going a step too far here. While I agree Mab can make deals both as herself and as her position as Queen (although I suspect much of the differences are semantics in most situations to the person on the other end), Mab only took over Lea's deal that she made with Harry but not Lea's deal with Margaret La Fey. Which I think Lea confirms as much in Changes when she says even she doesn't owe Mab so much to take out the Lords of the Outer Night, but Lea did so anyway because of her obligations to Dresden (because of her deal with Margaret). So I wouldn't say everything is just her duties to Mab, but much of it for sure.

Think you crossed some arguments.

Maggie was part of a plot to engineer a dangerous, uber-strong wizard starborn. Rather than walk away, she threw a wrench in the process by having such a child with Malcolm- breeding aside, Malcolm also raised Harry. Eb said Malcolm has a soul like few he'd ever seen- after meeting Michael. Also would neatly explain why Harry adopted Michael as a pseudofather so quickly.

The goblins are Wyldfae. Ir's why the Erlking is a Summer King, like Kringle is winter. Erlking is lord of the bloodsport that is the hunt in summer, as Kringle embodies the warmth and family coming together to survive side of Winter.

Wyldfae means Fae. Summer King implies Sidhe. Herne the Hunter is geographically close. And his Nevernever digs were similar tunnels, as I recall.
Which arguments did I cross?

Well, that's fair enough if that's your theory. But so far we haven't yet had that written in the books nor as WOJ so for now I am unconvinced that Margaret was part of a plot to create a star born.

But if we play out your theory a bit here - who was Margaret supposed to have a child with originally? And who were the co-conspirators to the plot? And what was going to be achieved by creating a star born? And why not just capture and raise one of the other 50,000?

The goblins are indeed Wyldfae but they are not the Sidhe. Faeries are a nation of many groups. I believe Bob made the comparison of calling to calling humans apes (which implies that the differences between different sub-groups such as goblins and sidhe are just as varied between different sub-groups of apes i.e. would we like being called chimpanzees?)

The Erlking being a Summer King has also been contradicted by Jim himself. I wouldn't rely on it too much. He later also says the Erlking has origins in Winter.

He further then says that there are no real "kings" of Faerie, they are just powerful lords of the Fae. But they don't have Courts.
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There is no such thing as a Summer King in the Dresden Files faerie cosmology. Mab and Titania need a King like a fish needs a bicycle. :)
There are a ton of independent rulers of the Wyld, though, much like the Erlking, who is a member of the Winter Court more or less as a sign of courtesy and respect.
Kringle doesn't have a Court, nor does the Erlking. In theory they could side with either Summer or Winter, just like any Wyldfae.
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The Faerie realms just aren’t that structured. It’s more accurate to say that [Kringle] is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab’s and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.

Who says Herne is the Erlking any more than Kringle is Vadderung? Lots of beings in disguise in the modern day. My meaning is that they could be two legally separate entities that happen to inhabit the same body. Also, Herne is just as associated with Winter given Shakespeare is the earliest reference to him given also one of his titles is "Master of Winter".

I get that his digs are tunnels, and Edinburgh has tunnels, but there are lots of tunnels around the world? That doesn't seem like a strong connection to me. Herne is from Windsor in England, which is as separate from Scotland as Canada is to the US (in those times). Edinburgh is in Scotland so I doubt that Herne had much to do with it. The association with Herne and the Erlking actually comes from the Grimms.

Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.

If Margaret  was enthralled to Raith and fell in love with Malcolm that might have broke her free of Raith since he wouldn't have been able to touch her.   He introduced the idea of time passing at different rates in the Never Never  so it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  He(Butcher) has also dropped a lot weird bread crumbs like Margaret and Malcolm visiting the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. That may have been where Harry was born (In DC).
What makes you think he's lying? I am curious on what that might be. Good to hang on to such feelings as it's often a good way of spotting a hint.

I seem to remember Margaret went on the run for two years, as you say, and in that time Harry was born. I think Ebenezar tells Harry this. I think she didn't meet Malcolm during this time, but rather at the start, given that's what I believe what gave her the strength to escape. Falling in love does crazy things to people after all.

DC is a reasonable spot as any if the location for the conjunction Light is the most if not all of the USA. But I do suspect it might be a bit smaller than that (i.e. the size of a city). DC could be the place of conception though...I doubt even Jim has the answer to that right now (if it ever becomes relevant). I think it would have to be only the size of a city, maybe smaller, given the amount of star borns.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2022, 12:45:03 PM »
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If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?
In a word, yes.  For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.
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The quote that Morris provides is the one I believe you are referring to. For your theory to really work, Harry has to be more special than any other star born. A special star born. Which I grant is possible. Harry could be some Chosen One of a prophecy. But we haven't heard any references to a prophecy or that Harry is chosen. The Chosen One thing is very much a fate thing, yet the series is constantly underlining the importance of choice. While fate and chance are not mutually exclusive necessarily it does make it harder to reconcile.
Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made.  He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born.  The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances.  Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better.  There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2022, 01:17:15 PM »
In a word, yes.  For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.

Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made.  He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born.  The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances.  Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better.  There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.
Even if there are 50k special parents give or take, that doesn't address Margaret choosing to be a part of some plot.

But Harry's choices don't make him intrinsically special any more than any other individuals choices. He's more special than the average human both because he is a wizard and because he is a star born, and perhaps because of some chosen one thing, and his choices have intensified this. But they don't make him a "special" star born. He doesn't have attributes beyond any of the others as far as we know. He has displayed the regular powers of star born i.e. resisting the power of the Outside and being able to hurt the Outsiders.

We don't know how a normal star born would behave as Harry is the benchmark, and we've only met two confirmed star born (possibly three). I don't see a difference between how bad star born act and how bad individuals act.

Shiro would have sacrificed himself for the lowest person on the planet. He is just that good of a person. Harry's star born nature had nothing to do with it, and I don't remember Shiro knowing a thing about it. Even if he did, I doubt that played into it whatsoever. That's what being a Knight of the Cross really means.

You also haven't addressed when Harry became a star born. When do you propose this happened?
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