Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Demonreach was put there for the principal reason, the genius loci. Merlin might have figured where future cycles would hit, so that may have been a secondary reason if the old time traveller was aware this would be a very tricky cycle as it also involves the Apocalypse.

I have argued that people were not sure until relatively recently where Demonreach was in the mortal world even Kemmler, as it was accessed from the NeverNever where the next best form of transport was horse and sailboat. You are right a lot of Old World Wizards would have looked to the Caspian Sea for centuries. Kemmler knew it was in the New World when he was Warden, but that gives an truly enormous area to search, especially when it is immune to divination.

I think the 50k is a gross overstatement to hide things. Halloween is the day that the barrier between the mortal and the supernatural is at its weakest, and the witching hour when a practitioner is at their strongest. If it’s birth whic is suggested, then I suspect it’s when the soul of the infant fully separates from that of his mother, they would be overlapping until then. I wonder what a pregnant lady looks like through the third eye? A jumble of overlapping and flickering images I would expect.

The searchlight could have been large enough to cover more than one big city and the next nearest is Milwaukee subject of the unseelie incursion of 94. Maybe not everyone had as accurate an mapping of where the searchlight would hit this time so the maternity wards in Chicago were ignored because all the Starborn chasers were in Milwaukee, and most only figured this out in 94.

[Mira]

I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt.  Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale.  The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America.  And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake.  In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.

I agree as far as Chicago goes, that it didn't exist 666 years ago is valid.  However since we've seen the short that Alfred played for Harry back in Cold Days as to how Merlin built the island, where it is located loses it's importance. Okay, one answer is the Leylines at that point, but it is also suggested that what makes those Leylines so potent is the gods/monsters in the prison feeding the energy. Or could it be the Leylines is the only thing holding them in prison?  It becomes the classic chicken or the egg scenario. The difficulties I see since Alfred has a limited range, aside from Merlin, who were the other Wardens of the island with the kind of juice needed to bind these monsters and then get them close enough for Alfred to throw them in the slammer?  Yes, the only obvious solution is the monsters were drug through the Nevernever to the island.. But that seems really risky to me, what if one got loose?  Or is that even possible once it was bound?

It comes from a WOJ just after Battle Ground I believe. Jim was asked about how many were running around and he said 40-50, 000 this cycle which doesn't account for previous cycles. And he said the cycles have been going since the beginning of Creation. It's to do with Lucifer's messing around.

Which, unless the point of having that many is for Harry to unite into a star born army to repel an Outsider invasion, is a real disappointment.  One also has to ask, what is the point?  I mean out of the fifty thousand born this cycle, how many have the talent or are even aware of or care about Outsiders?  More to the point, if they are so common, aside from the Outsider thing, what is so special about them that they are basically top secret information?  What is the White Council afraid of? Would they rather Harry got the story from Drakul or Listen?  Now that has the potential for fake news that could really do some damage. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Here’s a point, if you know where the searchlight is going to fall in 666 years time, want to farm Starborn and you are both long lived and well off, why not just build a City at that point and call it Chicago? That way you gets loads of Starborn in one go. That may explain supernatural interest in Chicago, they built the City. For the White Court, a high population city is a lovely hunting ground, Raith was old enough and rich enough and had an interest in Starborn..... Raith seems to have lost interest in Chicago after Margaret’s escap.

I live in the UK, our cities have been here  Millennia.

[Snark Knight]

I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.

So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.

[Mira]

I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.

So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.

Was it running around or working for the Winter Court?  Also just because a flock of them are born once every 666 years, they apparently don't have the same life spans, some may live to be thirty, or 300 or immortal, so it does fit.

[BrainFireBob]

I personally have no issue with the initial number of Starborn, they only matter if they have metaphysical talent. Listens probably falls in this bracket, Paranet level.

Chicago, though, is explained in series. Chicago is a travel nexus. It is a railroad nexus, an air nexus, a sea travel nexus, a river network nexus.

Chicago was elevated in the 19th century to alliw for sewers and water control. Magically, therefore, Chicago exists suspended between land, sea, and air.

Further, I believe the background series has implied politics that Harry missed. Namely, the Red Court and White Court were engaged un trying to sieze Chicago. It's why the council left Harry alone- he setup residence in a foreign territory.

Victor Sells, iirc, worked for SilverCo- Papa Raith's creature. Three way battle for Chicago's vice between Raith, Bianca (Ariana's creature) and Marcone (no-one's creature, but appears to be a White Council creature viz Harry). In short, it's a magic Wild West border town. Which implies territorial proximity- or being on another border.

Chicago is therefore a city of boundaries and pathways, perhaps more than anywhere than Constantinople.

So the series happens there

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.

So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.

Drakul we know has been running around for some time. Probably with scissors. Made of steel. On Halloween.

I have thought the whole Chicago above and Stone Table was to allow for a failed Lady or Queen to involuntarily pass on their Mantle to someone else better suited (but they still let Maeve run around?). The Ladies may be especially prone to failure.

[Yuillegan]

I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt.  Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale.  The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America.  And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake.  In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.

Regarding Harry as Starborn as far as the text is concerned the genesis of the idea is exposed by Eb when he discusses a meeting where Margaret laid out a plan to do something  that she thought the White Council might buy into.  How's that for a run on sentence? There are two ways to look at her pregnancy.  She was either pregnant when she ran or just randomly tripped over Malcolm while looking for a random sperm donor for her plan. Color me skeptical on the latter of those two possibilities.

The markings on Demonreach and the castle are interesting. That the Skin Walker isn't frightened suggests that he doesn't associate them with a prison capable of holding him. I'm thinking old ones or angels, someone from his other existence.

Totally get what you're saying. As I said, I was very annoyed about the relevance of Chicago because it didn't make much sense for things like Demonreach or millennia-old races/organisations that had established their HQ's there...except the White Council and a few others. Which is when I realised Jim must have a reason for Chicago being special (or else my head might explode). Perhaps Chicago was built on sacred ground or perhaps it is the location of a future prophecy. Perhaps Demonreach was felt from across the world. I could see Merlin getting some information about an island in a distant and unknown land (to the Euro-centric world) - perhaps Vadderung said "hey I know this great place to lock up monsters if you're interested?", but it also could be events in Harry's future that make Demonreach important in the past i.e. if you believe Harry is Merlin or connected to Merlin he interfered with the past.

Oh I think she definitely was pregnant. How else did she "find the strength to escape Lord Raith" as Harry was told by someone (Lea perhaps?). No, she must have fallen in love with Michael while with Raith and that gave her the strength to resist him.

The Naagloshii wasn't afraid of the markings...but it was frustrated by them. Whether it knew the origin of them or not, it was forced to respect the power behind them. Was there angelic script? Do Old One's even have a form of writing? I thought the runes were merely ancient proto-human script (i.e. proto-norse, ancient egyptian etc). Maybe even some Hyborean or Atlantean script (we know Atlantis existed in the Dresden Files after all...not so sure about Hyborean but Jim is a big Conan fan).

Demonreach was put there for the principal reason, the genius loci. Merlin might have figured where future cycles would hit, so that may have been a secondary reason if the old time traveller was aware this would be a very tricky cycle as it also involves the Apocalypse.

I have argued that people were not sure until relatively recently where Demonreach was in the mortal world even Kemmler, as it was accessed from the NeverNever where the next best form of transport was horse and sailboat. You are right a lot of Old World Wizards would have looked to the Caspian Sea for centuries. Kemmler knew it was in the New World when he was Warden, but that gives an truly enormous area to search, especially when it is immune to divination.

I think the 50k is a gross overstatement to hide things. Halloween is the day that the barrier between the mortal and the supernatural is at its weakest, and the witching hour when a practitioner is at their strongest. If it’s birth whic is suggested, then I suspect it’s when the soul of the infant fully separates from that of his mother, they would be overlapping until then. I wonder what a pregnant lady looks like through the third eye? A jumble of overlapping and flickering images I would expect.

The searchlight could have been large enough to cover more than one big city and the next nearest is Milwaukee subject of the unseelie incursion of 94. Maybe not everyone had as accurate an mapping of where the searchlight would hit this time so the maternity wards in Chicago were ignored because all the Starborn chasers were in Milwaukee, and most only figured this out in 94.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8 This video at 42:00 Jim says there are 40-50,000 of them originally (not so much now).

Which, unless the point of having that many is for Harry to unite into a star born army to repel an Outsider invasion, is a real disappointment.  One also has to ask, what is the point?  I mean out of the fifty thousand born this cycle, how many have the talent or are even aware of or care about Outsiders?  More to the point, if they are so common, aside from the Outsider thing, what is so special about them that they are basically top secret information?  What is the White Council afraid of? Would they rather Harry got the story from Drakul or Listen?  Now that has the potential for fake news that could really do some damage. 

See, I was thinking it was a bit more like Supernatural (the TV show) where Azazel the demon feeds his blood to young babies, which taints them and gives them psychic powers but also one of them will become the leader of the demons (and in the end, the vessel for Lucifer).

So star born are actually meant to lead the Outsiders and bring them in. They're not meant to repel them. They're meant to control and lead them. It just so happens that means they also can kick them out and actually hurt them too. A double-edged sword.

My reasoning for this is that I believe that Lucifer is the one who created/creates star born and it's part of his argument with TWG. I have a much longer post about star born being like the antichrist(s) if you want to read it. But essentially I think they are not meant to be heroes. Which sets up the trope of Harry turning against his darker nature to do good...which is a huge theme of the Dresden Files. Thomas does it all the time, Molly has done it inconsistently yet still done it, Harry of course is the case in point.

I think the White Council (and others like Vadderung) are concerned that once these beings realise their power they could really do some damage. They don't believe they will turn against their natures (which is typical of the Council and another constant of the books). Harry of course constantly demonstrates that he is more than the monster they believe him to be. Doesn't mean he doesn't fall short at times either, but he does try to do good and often succeeds.

Truth is though, nowhere has it been said star born are good or intended as such. In fact, Jim has said the opposite is effectively true. Given the reactions of various beings who know about star born I would say that it is consistent. They view them as weapons, as destructive elements, as tools to shape the future. The "good" guys seem scared of them. The bad guys seem to want to use them.

I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.

So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.

I believe that's the case. One died around Hastings, and I am unsure about the second.

I personally have no issue with the initial number of Starborn, they only matter if they have metaphysical talent. Listens probably falls in this bracket, Paranet level.

Chicago, though, is explained in series. Chicago is a travel nexus. It is a railroad nexus, an air nexus, a sea travel nexus, a river network nexus.

Chicago was elevated in the 19th century to alliw for sewers and water control. Magically, therefore, Chicago exists suspended between land, sea, and air.

Further, I believe the background series has implied politics that Harry missed. Namely, the Red Court and White Court were engaged un trying to sieze Chicago. It's why the council left Harry alone- he setup residence in a foreign territory.

Victor Sells, iirc, worked for SilverCo- Papa Raith's creature. Three way battle for Chicago's vice between Raith, Bianca (Ariana's creature) and Marcone (no-one's creature, but appears to be a White Council creature viz Harry). In short, it's a magic Wild West border town. Which implies territorial proximity- or being on another border.

Chicago is therefore a city of boundaries and pathways, perhaps more than anywhere than Constantinople.

So the series happens there

I like this. Great stuff!

[Mira]

Truth is though, nowhere has it been said star born are good or intended as such. In fact, Jim has said the opposite is effectively true. Given the reactions of various beings who know about star born I would say that it is consistent. They view them as weapons, as destructive elements, as tools to shape the future. The "good" guys seem scared of them. The bad guys seem to want to use them.

I don't disagree, however I would add that the White Council wanted to be part of this game as well. I has written a while back that they also had intended to use Margaret to get their own advantage.  That is why she rebelled in the first place against them and for a while went off the deep end.  Then she stumbled across pure goodness, it changed her and in her love for Malcolm she decided that mankind was worth saving.  There was better way to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans,which the conception with Malcolm and birth of Harry did. 

The series has also has balance as a consistent theme, with Malcolm as Harry's father Margaret
balanced out the darkness with the light.  Oh Harry does have many of the dark qualities that make
a star born, but he also has just as many of the qualities that make up a good man from his father.
This is what sets him apart from the rest of the star born.  However none of it explains why no one will sit him down and tell him the truth about what he is and what he was meant to do.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The White Council wanted Harry like they wanted the Eye, as a weapon.

The vote to oust Harry was the final realisation that they could never control him.

So what is their Plan B? Not the Eye, they started the ouster of Harry before they realised it was in play. Call the Eye it Plan C. The White Council have something nobody knows about to keep them in the game, another Starborn stashed away? Something else? If so what? Here’s a nasty thought, Drakul is working with the Merlin and the price of his help was Wild Bill, Yoshi, Carlos and the death of Harry Dresden, dangerous  Starborn. Chandler was not part of the price so he gets to be stashed elsewhere.

Listen was working with Black Council/Fomor, in which case it makes sense Merlin is working with Drakul, and Rudy was the Merlin’s leg man in Chicago.

[Yuillegan]

I don't disagree, however I would add that the White Council wanted to be part of this game as well. I has written a while back that they also had intended to use Margaret to get their own advantage.  That is why she rebelled in the first place against them and for a while went off the deep end.  Then she stumbled across pure goodness, it changed her and in her love for Malcolm she decided that mankind was worth saving.  There was better way to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans,which the conception with Malcolm and birth of Harry did. 

The series has also has balance as a consistent theme, with Malcolm as Harry's father Margaret balanced out the darkness with the light.  Oh Harry does have many of the dark qualities that make a star born, but he also has just as many of the qualities that make up a good man from his father.
This is what sets him apart from the rest of the star born.  However none of it explains why no one will sit him down and tell him the truth about what he is and what he was meant to do.

I agree that the White Council and "others" have plans for Harry that don't involve him being an agent of destruction...at least to them and the world at large. Rashid is a prime example of what happens when things work out it seems. Drakul is possibly the opposite...although I would bet there are far more examples.

I think it must be difficult to identify star born up to a point...similar to how Rashid even struggles to detect Nemesis (or Uriel for that matter). Obviously people know about Harry now that he is starting to use that power, but I wonder about others. Because Elaine could be yet has seemingly remained undetected by the White Council (although not by the Black Council perhaps). Obviously Outsiders know them, considering the power star born can wield against them. But I wonder how easy it is to find them? To identify them once found? Particularly if they haven't been using their power.

Not so sure I agree that Margaret was intended to be used by the White Council, but it's possible. I think she rebelled for far more ordinary reasons though, like having an authoritarian mentor/parent and disliking how the Council operates and bullies others...just like Harry. Ebenezar and Luccio effectively tell us this anyway.

I think it's fairly clear why no one is telling Harry just yet:

1. If a being is a potential antichrist and doesn't yet know their nature...is it wise (or even ethical) to alert them?

2. If said being is already a bit rash at times, pathologically determined to do what they believe is "right", and already playing in the grey areas quite a bit (let alone fairly dark associations), is it so hard to understand why those who know might be hesitant to tell said person?

3. Listens-to-Wind and River Shoulders both implied that telling Harry has far reaching implications and it isn't up to any one person to reveal it - even the bad guys seem to be in on this. I suspect it's because once a being "knows" it changes the course of history which is exceedingly dangerous. Think about the Oblivion War. Some information is too dangerous to even exist in the minds of humans...because humans have free will (which is just so much power). Power to change the universe, to write destiny. I'd say this information is of that category.

4. It could also be a prophecy-type deal that once the person is told, it certain events in motion, and maybe everyone is building up their forces and defenses to ensure that they are ready for what comes next. Several beings have hinted they want as much power as possible when things kick off. Titania also implied to Mab that some sort of threshold had been crossed, a milestone that means those very things are about to happen (relatively speaking).

[Mira]

Not so sure I agree that Margaret was intended to be used by the White Council, but it's possible. I think she rebelled for far more ordinary reasons though, like having an authoritarian mentor/parent and disliking how the Council operates and bullies others...just like Harry. Ebenezar and Luccio effectively tell us this anyway.

The evidence for that is in my opinion is the fact that she apparently knew the significance of on and how to conceive of one.  Now it is possible I guess that it was Lord Raith that was pushing her for this.  Wouldn't he have loved a star born child that he could use as a weapon? Provided of course it was female, a male child especially a star born one would have been seen as a threat.  So I don't think that happened, and while the idea of star born children may be general knowledge, the details of how to conceive one is another matter.  Apparently the Senior Council has this knowledge, Eb wasn't a member at that time, but as Blackstaff with the job perhaps of taking one out from time to time, he'd need the knowledge.  I think the real reason the Merlin wanted Eb to observe and possibly wipe out young Harry wasn't because he feared he'd revert to warlock, but because he knew Harry was star born.  And just how did that know this?  I mean they may have had Harry's birthday, but did they have the other information about him?  That tells me they knew very well what Margaret had done, and had been a part of it at one time.

I think it must be difficult to identify star born up to a point...similar to how Rashid even struggles to detect Nemesis (or Uriel for that matter). Obviously people know about Harry now that he is starting to use that power, but I wonder about others. Because Elaine could be yet has seemingly remained undetected by the White Council (although not by the Black Council perhaps). Obviously Outsiders know them, considering the power star born can wield against them. But I wonder how easy it is to find them? To identify them once found? Particularly if they haven't been using their power.

Is it?  I mean several characters have come out and called Harry a star born without much trouble. Harry doesn't have a tat too on his forehead proclaiming it, so without additional information how did they know?  Now HWWB didn't seem to have any trouble, though he didn't come right out and call him a star born.  Do Outsiders make a habit of visiting and checking out possible star born confidantes?

4. It could also be a prophecy-type deal that once the person is told, it certain events in motion, and maybe everyone is building up their forces and defenses to ensure that they are ready for what comes next. Several beings have hinted they want as much power as possible when things kick off. Titania also implied to Mab that some sort of threshold had been crossed, a milestone that means those very things are about to happen (relatively speaking).

But Harry has always known since White Knight that he was different because of how his mother and father conceived him, he had power over Outsiders.  Also from the soul gaze with Thomas, Margaret told him that it might be unfair the burden her and his father placed on him.  Also in Harry's vision/dream of Malcolm, he repeated what Margaret said.  As late as Peace Talks Eb told Harry he can deal with Outsiders, yet Harry hasn't used that knowledge to go Outsider hunting.
So he knows quite a bit, but unless there is some more to the huge reveal, why not tell him?  I think a lot of people will have a lot to answer for once Harry knows, that is why no one is sitting him down and telling him the whole truth.. I include the Winter Court in that, I think they had a lot to do with why Margaret ultimately made her decision.. Andthat'swhy Harry is really going to be pissed at Lea for becoming his godmother, he is going to be pissed at the whole Winter Court.. Hell yeah, he will feel used and abused in the typical fashion that only Harry Dresden can feel..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not Winter, Lea. Not everything Lea does is on behalf of Winter.

The deal Lea made with Harry was with her, not Winter. It’s transfer to Winter was part of the price Lea paid to be free of Nemesis. This doesn’t mean that the deal Lea made with Margaret was with Winter, or part of the price Lea paid. Harry was not part of that deal, he cut his own with Lea.

What did Mab get with it eventually ? A competent Winter Knight and Winter Lady. There is nothing else she needs. Lea’s deal with Margaret if about Maggie, is not about Winter, it’s about Lea, and as such neither Mab nor Molly will interfere as it her personal business, not Winters Business.

We will I  think see a Battle Royale between Harry and Lea at some point, the problem is Lea is immortal, Harry is not. It may be this is what gets Harry to release Ethnui, to take in Lea, and bring her to Demonreach. We haven’t seen Lea take on Ethnui, she was at the Gates during the Battle of Chicago, and we have had foreshadowing of the release of Ethnui.

And Mab will sit back and do nothing.

[vincentric]

Somehow I doubt that Lea vs Ethniu would last as long as Titania, Vadderung and Erlking vs Ethniu did.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Exactly, even a weakened Ethnui minus the Eye would be able to take out Lea easily. She’s stronger than the Erl King and Kringle, but nowhere near as strong as Mab

The way to stop a bound Ethnui attack is to kill Harry, so ideally Harry would send Ethnui out from one of his strongholds, preferably Demonreach to bring her back to him. I can seriously see a pissed off Harry having Lea physically dragged through the lake bed by Ethnui to Demonreach to be given over to Alfred. Nice way of weakening Leas will.

That way we get a Battle of wills as Harry binds Lea (my money’s on Harry, he faced down Lea before and won over the mushrooms.

Ethnui does solve the problem of Alfred not being able to reach beyond the Lakeshore. Harry can  send a bound Ethnui out so long as he is safe. If he dies with Ethnui out, Ethnui would be free again.