Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

[Mira]

No there are multiple Starborn in any one sequence but when Kemmler was last  around it was close to the end of the 666 year sequence, so the only known Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul, who even Kemmler probably didn’t fancy taking on. Time winnows them down. Drakul may not be immortal in that he can be killed other than on Halloween, but may be long lived just like most Fae who are not immortal, or White Court Vampires and is still immensely powerful and resilient. Immortality is the next step up and godhood the next step up from that. It stands to reason therefore as a stepping stone to godhood, you siphon off another beings immortality, hence the Erl King being summoned.

We don't know though, where is the text that says Kemmler was star born? Other than Harry the only two mentioned so far is Drakul and Listen.  Eb said in Peace Talks that every 666 years a child born when the stars line up a certain way is star born.  However I don't think it is easy as it appears or that many are truly born, oh there might be a few accidentally born at the right moment no doubt.. But whether or not that means anything to the average vanilla human remains to be seen.  I mean from Lash we learn that the conception of the child at the right moment is also important... Timing is everything and as I said for it to mean anything it has to be intentional.  So honestly I doubt there are that many out there.  It is like Harry Potter verses Nevil Longbottom, very close they were for the criteria to defeat Voldermort, but only one was actually born to do it.

[apgrey]

Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460

  The above is a post I made a while back about Harry, Elaine, and Justin DuMorne.
  Did Justin know that Harry is a starborn?  Did Justin know that Elaine is a potential starborn?  If so, how does that tie into his relationship with Margaret LeFay? 
  Margaret LeFay set out to have a starborn child, and tried to make him as powerful as possible.  Did she learn how to have a starborn child from Justin DuMorne, or with Justin DuMorne?
  There are so many questions about what happened back then.

APG

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I never said Kemmler was Starborn, it would be a reason if it is required for a successful Darkhallow that he DIDN’T do it himself, and withheld this knowledge from the heirs.

It may be though that you can do it if you body swap a Starborn, but you have to have one available to Bodyswap and the new batch wouldn’t be born for nearly a decade after his last reported death. The only known surviving Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul. Good luck trying to steal his body, especially with the White Council baying for your blood

Kemmler could have been waiting for someone like Harry to be born, when he got killed again. Indeed Justin could have been waiting for someone just like Harry for Kemmler to bodyswap into, he had Bob and the Word, and you couldn't be sure Kemmler was dead as he had been killed seven times previously. Maybe Justin was waiting every day for Kemmler to contact him, or was on the verge or resurrecting him in Harry’s body when he started to enthrall Elaine, and got killed himself by Harry. We don’t know much about Justin’s motivations, but controlling two thug wizards wouldn’t be a challenge to the White Council, but being High Priest to a resurrected Dark God Kemmler with Elaine as High Priestess might appeal more. Maybe Justin was the true heir of Kemmler.

It may be that Harry killed not only Justin, but also Kemmlers last chance at resurrection with Justin. Kemmler always had an escape plan, from what we have seen this time it might have been Justin, being a hidden Kemmlerite amongst the Wardens.

Isn’t there a WOJ that Elaine was Starborn as well?

Journal indicates that several factions in the White Council knew of Harry’s status as a Starborn, at the very least Morgan, Eb, and Justin.

[Mira]

It may be though that you can do it if you body swap a Starborn, but you have to have one available to Bodyswap and the new batch wouldn’t be born for nearly a decade after his last reported death. The only known surviving Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul. Good luck trying to steal his body, especially with the White Council baying for your blood

I don't think a body would do Kemmler or anybody any good.  A body is a body, there is more to being a starborn than that I think.  The skills don't carry over, remember Luccio in a new body, she still was a wizard, but she lost the skill to forge Warden's swords to match the skills and talents of the Warden wielding it.  If it were as simple as switching out a body, you'd think the Corpsetaker would have latched on to one long ago for a chance to be starborn.

[Yuillegan]

  Or using the Star Wars metaphor, "One must not give into the dark side of the Force."  That is why a Jedi has to keep his or her emotions under control and not be too connected emotionally to anyone.
They have great power, but if they lose their temper and really cut loose with it, they start going
down a dark road and turn into someone like Darth Vader.

Indeed, but it must matter more for star born than regular beings. Otherwise why would everyone keep the knowledge so secret?

No there are multiple Starborn in any one sequence but when Kemmler was last  around it was close to the end of the 666 year sequence, so the only known Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul, who even Kemmler probably didn’t fancy taking on. Time winnows them down. Drakul may not be immortal in that he can be killed other than on Halloween, but may be long lived just like most Fae who are not immortal, or White Court Vampires and is still immensely powerful and resilient. Immortality is the next step up and godhood the next step up from that. It stands to reason therefore as a stepping stone to godhood, you siphon off another beings immortality, hence the Erl King being summoned.

I'd say Drakul is about as mortal/immortal as Vadderung - though likely for different reasons. But both seem to use it the same way i.e. to influence events at a local level. Vadderung was clearly a major power once yet chooses to be a bit more mortal so that he can stay in the game. I'd say Drakul also does the same thing. Jim has compared them both a lot - particularly regarding their multiple identities throughout history. It seems to be a choice to do with mortals that makes mortals much simpler to deal with.

Drakul isn't immortal in the same way Mab or the other immortals are though, apparently (same as Vadderung). I suspect they can be killed outside the Halloween conjunction (and other immortal killing places and objects like the Eye of Balor). That's their trade off. But they still have their knowledge and a bit of power, enough to take on other immortals.

Gods seem to be their own species, not merely a level of power (although clearly some are very strong). After all, Vadderung is a god yet not immortal. Mab is an immortal, but not a god (although her power is hinted to come from at least one god, and maybe several others).

 

Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460

  The above is a post I made a while back about Harry, Elaine, and Justin DuMorne.
  Did Justin know that Harry is a starborn?  Did Justin know that Elaine is a potential starborn?  If so, how does that tie into his relationship with Margaret LeFay? 
  Margaret LeFay set out to have a starborn child, and tried to make him as powerful as possible.  Did she learn how to have a starborn child from Justin DuMorne, or with Justin DuMorne?
  There are so many questions about what happened back then.

APG

Almost certainly Justin knew about Harry, given his ties to Margaret. And I doubt it was some accident he picked up Elaine. So I would say it's more likely than not that he knew at least of her potential...assuming she is one. Maggie Le Fay seems to have been friends with a great many Wardens (Morgan, Luccio, Justin) despite her animosity with the Council in general. I would say she was rather like Harry. Liked by some, feared by some, hated by some, but the achievements are respected (even if the individual isn't always). The way it looks though is she might have been quite a bit more of a piece of work than Harry. And considering her respect by a great many darker and more vile beings and individuals...I would say she did some pretty questionable stuff. More than Harry at any rate.

[morriswalters]

Just an observation.  Somebody was looking for special children and using the courts and other institutions to find them.  This has been a recurring theme in the books. Elaine was probably picked specifically because she was similar to Harry.

[Mira]

Just an observation.  Somebody was looking for special children and using the courts and other institutions to find them.  This has been a recurring theme in the books. Elaine was probably picked specifically because she was similar to Harry.

I agree, Justin may have been tipped off about orphans born at the right time who display talent, and proceeded to adopt them..  Actually this might have been the motivation for Malcolm's murder.
If he had lived, once Harry began to show talent, surely Malcolm would have asked his father in law for help with the boy.  That had to be prevented, so Malcolm was murdered.. Another thought, someone was paid off to lose Harry's records so Eb or Morgan wouldn't have been able to locate him with in the system, then made sure that when they were sure of his talent, that Justin would find him.  I also think that while Elaine was born at the right time, she may not have been conceived under the right conditions.

[Con]

I think being a star born as a requirement for the Dark Hallow is interesting as it could explain why Kemmler never managed it despite his obvious power, it could also explain his final death. The Dark Hallow weakened him enough after he was unable to complete it.

I think Elaine had the potential to be star born at one time or another, whether or not she still is... probably it feels like a waste if she wasn't.

Here;s the WOJ

Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A:  Yes.  There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them. (Editor's note:  The original asker posted this clarification)
Quote from: laura118b on August 23, 2010, 08:01:14 PM
…I asked him the question
The full question was if he had stated in the past, during an interview, that Elaine also was a candidate to have the potential to wield power over Outsiders.  His longer answer was yes, he had said that before, that Harry and Elaine are just a few months apart age wise so for all intensive purposes the same age.  He then told me that was one of the reasons that Justin had picked both of them to adopt, it wasn't just random kids with power.  The key word in my question and his answer was potential.

We know Listens is star born but he doesn't seem to have any direct access to magic or atleast he hasn't used any despite several life endangering appearances.

I like Drakul being immortal but not god like. If he was god like Rivers wouldn't have been able to block his teleporting ability. I just reread that scene yesterday. River blocks some of Drakuls abilities in order for them to have a physical fight. Drakul being on level with Vadderung seems about right. Particularly if you know given Drakul means Dragon and Vadderungs feelings about Dragons.

[Mira]

  We don't know about Cowl, if it weren't for Bob, Harry, and Sue, he would have pulled off Darkhallow.. So is Cowl starborn?  What happened to him anyway? He hasn't been heard from since White Night and had given the impression of being a major player.

[morriswalters]

There is a certain level of Butcher being Butcher in all of this.  My mother could be Starborn for as much specificity as he gives. But obviously birth date isn't sufficient in and of itself. Where you are when you were born seems to be important. So the date is knowable but the location may not be and the only way to know is to test for it.  Or maybe Margaret figured it out.  Which might explain why Malcolm wasn't at the birth.

If you want to go all tin hat, the fight with Justin may have been that test.  Put Harry on the run and see what happens when he crosses paths with an Outsider. If he's Starborn he passes, if he isn't, he gets eaten. Easy Peasy and here is your guaranteed Genuine Starborn Certificate.

[Mira]

There is a certain level of Butcher being Butcher in all of this.  My mother could be Starborn for as much specificity as he gives. But obviously birth date isn't sufficient in and of itself. Where you are when you were born seems to be important. So the date is knowable but the location may not be and the only way to know is to test for it.  Or maybe Margaret figured it out.  Which might explain why Malcolm wasn't at the birth.

If you want to go all tin hat, the fight with Justin may have been that test.  Put Harry on the run and see what happens when he crosses paths with an Outsider. If he's Starborn he passes, if he isn't, he gets eaten. Easy Peasy and here is your guaranteed Genuine Starborn Certificate.

All of that can be true, I think equally important is the conditions the moment the sperm enters the egg and the star zygote is created.. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I don't think a body would do Kemmler or anybody any good.  A body is a body, there is more to being a starborn than that I think.  The skills don't carry over, remember Luccio in a new body, she still was a wizard, but she lost the skill to forge Warden's swords to match the skills and talents of the Warden wielding it.  If it were as simple as switching out a body, you'd think the Corpsetaker would have latched on to one long ago for a chance to be starborn.

We don’t know, but given Corpsetaker we know this was an area of interest for Kemmler. Drakul has been described as something not human stuffed into a human form (that quote belongs in this collection) whether he was a Starborn first or the body is Starborn we don’t know. However Harry, Elaine and Listen are all human, suggesting you need to be a human to be Starborn, so if Drakul started off non-human, Kemmler might have been on the right track. For all we know Kemmler was experimenting to see if he could replicate himself as Drakul as a stepping stone to the Darkhallow. Perhaps a Starborn body is merely more durable (look at the hell Harry has put his through) and that is required for the Darkhallow.

The difference between Vadderung and Drakul is the Kringle Mantle, which like the Queens renders him immortal not merely ageless and extremely difficult to kill, like for example the Redcap. Otherwise they would be on a equal footing. The other difference is that Odin has access to Soulfire and this is required to create Einenjharen, the only way it seems to safely resurrect the dead appears to be Soulfire (e.g. Jesus and Lazarus). Drakul’s son created the original  Black Court Vampires, perhaps in response, using Hellfire?

[Mira]

There is more to Vadderung than just the Kringle Mantle that makes him immortal.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

There is more to Vadderung than just the Kringle Mantle that makes him immortal.

There was, but he took a deliberate step down to stay in the game as a mortal, probably in exchange for Soulfire from the White God and the crafty bugger figured out to still do so and regain his immortality through the White God mandated Kringle Mantle. It’s not his immortality or the ability to wield Soulfire which makes him formidable, it’s his smarts. That’s the real edge he has over Drakul.

[Mira]

There was, but he took a deliberate step down to stay in the game as a mortal, probably in exchange for Soulfire from the White God and the crafty bugger figured out to still do so and regain his immortality through the White God mandated Kringle Mantle. It’s not his immortality or the ability to wield Soulfire which makes him formidable, it’s his smarts. That’s the real edge he has over Drakul.

Where is that written? Sorry if I sound rude, I don't mean to be, I just don't remember any of that in the stories, is it WOJ?