Battle Ground foreshadowing

[seanham]

I think Mab's command is directed more at killing Molly and less at killing the Winter Lady. We know from Good People that Molly is more human than Mab would like and that Mab thinks that could limit her potential in the Winter Court. One could kill Molly without killing the Winter Lady. Molly would just become Maeve.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

No killing Molly would make her the Winter Lady, and not Maeve, Maeve fought against the Mantle and embraced Nemesis. Molly has embraced the Mantle and is taking it in direction Mab didn’t expect and doesn’t understand.

It’s not what Molly did which unnerved Mab, it’s that the Mantle not only allowed it but ran with it. Molly is unlocking previously unknown potential in the Mantle, and if she can do that as Winter Lady, what could she do as Queen? Winter being charitable? Impossible! Not in The Good People. Even The Redcap’s small heart grew three sizes that day.

[morriswalters]

Mab doesn't speak in metaphors.  There is no reason to believe that Mab meant other than what she said. There is nothing to suggest that once you become a Lady or a Queen that you can get out from under other than by dying.

Butcher makes the point over and over that Mab would throw Harry under the bus without hesitation if it needed to happen.  Just on that basis Molly isn't fit. Could she kill Harry, or for that matter could she sacrifice her family if she needed to?  She has too much heart for that.

I'd like to think they were destined to live together forever, but my heart says that Butcher is a sadist in practice.

[Yuillegan]

A lot of beings are said to have nine lives, some people believe the white god is one such being which has been part of ehe series for a long time.

At least Molly believes she is immortal. In battle ground she told Harry she could go through a wood chipper and she would get better.

It was not the breaking down of reality, it was being hit by the eye itself. If she had waited by Odin, the Earl King and Titania's bodies, put them in a pile and blasted them when it was ready then they would have been dead. Or if she had managed to  hit Mab a second time

Again, has it ever been stated or implied during the series or in a WOJ that TWG in the Dresden Files has nine lives? I don't believe so but would be happy for someone to point this out. I am not talking about whether the Abrahamic God that several billion people in our world believe in - we don't discuss real world beliefs here, with the sole exception of the what's contextual to the Dresden Files. The White God of the Dresden Files IS NOT the same being as the Abrahamic God in our world. Jim may have based TWG on aspects of the Abrahamic God. But the Dresden Files is a story and needs to be treated as such. TWG is a fictional being. The status of the Abrahamic God in our world is one that has been in constant debate for a very long time and these boards are not the appropriate place to discuss this.

I want to make this extremely clear: stick to talking about what's in the series, not current real-world beliefs.

I understand that is at times difficult given that the book is set in the present day and uses things from our world. But the Dresden Files is a work of fiction and any statements or implied points should be reviewed under that lens. If we go too far into real world beliefs we are in Touchy Topics territory and things could get out of hand. I don't want that.

Molly is an immortal, although perhaps one of the least of them. But all immortals cannot die except in very specific circumstances one of which is being in a conjunction (which is a measure of a point in time and space), Bob suggest some parts of the Nevernever may also render immortals mortal, and Jim has said that the Eye of Balor can kill immortals should they fail to stop or evade the blast (the example he used was Uriel). I agree that a second hit from the Eye would have killed Mab; Mab herself as much says that when asked how she survived at all.

The Mister Microfiction disproved that Mister is the White God.

That's one way of looking at it. The Egg by Andy Weir might suggest otherwise (if that takes your fancy):    

I think Mab's command is directed more at killing Molly and less at killing the Winter Lady. We know from Good People that Molly is more human than Mab would like and that Mab thinks that could limit her potential in the Winter Court. One could kill Molly without killing the Winter Lady. Molly would just become Maeve.

This^. Mab doesn't want Harry to unmake the mantle. That would be insanity. But wanting a new Winter Lady is hardly unusual...Cold Days was all about that. And I agree, I think Mab is worried about the consequences of making Winter a little warmer. Your solution to killing Molly is dark. But it might work too. Faeries are such lawyers after all.

Mab doesn't speak in metaphors.  There is no reason to believe that Mab meant other than what she said. There is nothing to suggest that once you become a Lady or a Queen that you can get out from under other than by dying.

Butcher makes the point over and over that Mab would throw Harry under the bus without hesitation if it needed to happen.  Just on that basis Molly isn't fit. Could she kill Harry, or for that matter could she sacrifice her family if she needed to?  She has too much heart for that.

I'd like to think they were destined to live together forever, but my heart says that Butcher is a sadist in practice.

You're probably right here. I think when Mab asks for a persons death, she means it. But the idea of killing the person Molly was is an interesting notion nonetheless.

Molly has too much heart now. Give her 50 years and you might not recognize her.

Butcher is a sadist (my word that part of the sentence on it's own sounds savage enough). But he is sentimental too. The whole Harry raising little Maggie thing. Michael's family going on to have a good life as a reward for their service to humanity. And so on. Who can say what he really will do in the end? I am not so sure even he knows yet.

[morriswalters]

Sadist is a good description of what Butcher does with the character not what he is. He's always looking to torture Harry.

[g33k]

... And I agree, I think Mab is worried about the consequences of making Winter a little warmer. Your solution to killing Molly is dark. But it might work too. Faeries are such lawyers after all.
You're probably right here. I think when Mab asks for a persons death, she means it. But the idea of killing the person Molly was is an interesting notion nonetheless ...

I think Mab is simply  worried that Molly is too young, inexperienced, and weak  (in terms of personal power, willpower,  as well as "Wintery" coldness/hardness) to be an effective Queen.  She will simply be overmatched just by Titania... let alone by the duties of the Outer Gates!  And thus, Mab fears... Winter's purpose would fail, and fall; and with it, all creation.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Sadist is a good description of what Butcher does with the character not what he is. He's always looking to torture Harry.

Yes in new ways, parenthood is a whole new bag and Jim is looking forward to Maggie’s first crush and how it will put Harry through the wringer and Jim is probably going to enjoy the break in format for NEXT BOOK to try new things on Harry, such as dealing with the mundane soul destroying drew of life as it interfaces with Harry very unordinary life for example having Harry audited by the IRS

“Mr Dresden, you claim everything you owned in your home and office and car was destroyed, you then claimed you were dead for six months and then stranded on an island no on can find on the maps before re-appearing with a suspicious amount of wealth, claiming two dependents one of whom doesn’t appear to exist, before taking up residence in a castle formerly owned by Chicago’s godfather. And you think you shouldn’t be audited? Seriously?”

Harry would have to hire the Swartalves to do his taxes, they probably moved to the US because of their appreciation of the complexity and nitpicking nature of the US Tax Code.

Jim has already set up the planning of the wedding over the year, with Harry caught between Lara and Molly. Harry will hate all of it, except the cake tasting, which of course Jim will make him miss or which is completely disrupted by a monster attack. Now that is a bit of Battle Ground foreshadowing.

Another bit of foreshadowing, in Peace Talks about Mister getting on in age, and Harry has to deal with an unwell and ailing cat, vet visits, preparing Maggie (and himself) for Misters demise, stretched out over the the year as Mister visibly fades.

[Basil]

Peter Principle

Some people who are good at what they do are not suited to being promoted.  Mab apparently believes that Molly, while a good Winter Lady, is not suited to the top-job. 

I suspect that Mab would like Lara to be put into the position of Winter Queen if something goes sideways.  However, given the mechanisms of Winter, at least as far as I understand them, if something would happen to Mab, then Molly would inherit the title. 

Basically, Mab is saying that Harry should take out Molly, which would give the Queen of Winter title to Lara and then Lara could find a new Winter Lady.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not sure, the wedding plans came after the Battle, not before.

Arguably Harry when wed to Lara would have a similar enough role with her as he already does with Mab (consort) that is creates a potential link to the Winter Queen Mantle so that it would go to Lara rather than Molly (say by putting Molly in a circle so the Mantle can’t get to her and instead goes to the next candidate, Lara).

Mab wanted HaRa to tie the knot immediately upon the end of the Battle, it was only when Lara wanted to wait did she agree, BUT the plan to announce the engagement and have HaRa seen publicly may work better if in the slightly longer term to create that link.

Mab is succession planning and Lea is NOT part of that plan, Molly is and I suspect Lara is. Mab needing help with documents from the White Court? Please. Mab  was setting Lara up to owe her a favour when she knew the favour Lara would ask, same with Nick, and same favour, the services of Harry as the Winter Knight.

One tends to think of Mab’s death freeing her Mantle, but what if instead Mother Winter has indicated to Mab she intends to abdicate? From the Little we have seen of the Mothers, Winter seems to be feeling her age more, and if I remember correctly she’s the original? Global warming can’t be doing her any favours. Maybe the return of the Blackstaff will signal a change?

[g33k]

Mab is succession planning and Lea is NOT part of that plan, Molly is and I suspect Lara is... 

I suspect Lea used to be part of the succession plan (if only a contingency); but the Athame cut a permanent Nemesis-wound into her, and she's no longer suitable.

Lara seems very "maybe" to me:  no real Winter channel there.  Would marriage to the WK give such a channel?  I... guess?  Maybe?  But also very much maybe not.

One tends to think of Mab’s death freeing her Mantle, but what if instead Mother Winter has indicated to Mab she intends to abdicate? From the Little we have seen of the Mothers, Winter seems to be feeling her age more, and if I remember correctly she’s the original? Global warming can’t be doing her any favours. Maybe the return of the Blackstaff will signal a change? 

I agree:  I think we may well see Mother Winter depart, and the Mantle suck Mab out from under the Winter Queen mantle... and if Molly is still Winter Lady...

I don't think MW is "feeling her age..." I think she's feeling the lack of her walking-stick.  I suspect (I even hope!) we'll see her order the WK to "fetch me my walking-stick, boy!"
 

[EBRIEN]

I agree:  I think we may well see Mother Winter depart, and the Mantle suck Mab out from under the Winter Queen mantle... and if Molly is still Winter Lady...

 

Are we sure that would happen? One ascends to the next level? We've only seen what happens when one of the Winter Ladies is killed and the Mantle passes to one most suited. If Mab were killed, could Mother Winter could hold her Mantle or bestow it on someone other than Molly? Or, if Mother Winter was done, could Mab hold her Mantle until she was prepped or a Winter Queen was prepped?

Just spitballing here.

Cheers---B

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Mothers are pretty much unkillable, high power Immortals with Intellectus, so no one is going to be able to sneak up on them, and there are two of them, one always watching. Retirement is another matter, wearying of the role they are stuck in, wanting to relinquish it.

Mab wasn’t able to redirect the Winter Lady Mantle, like she can the Winter Knight Mantle , but she may not have wanted to, she certainly couldn’t control the Summer Lady Mantle, Maeve murdered the Summer Lady to deny Mab her choice. Retirement would allow control of the direction of the Mantles, Mother Winter uses the big circle on Demonreach so that it contains Herself, Mab and Lara but not Molly. The Circle protects reality from her extrusion into it. She retires and her Mantle goes to Mab, who accepts it displacing Mab’s Mantle which only has the choice of Lara, Molly is cut off from it by the circle and the Winter Queen Mantle cannot identify her, going instead to Lara.

The Mantles are creations, at a default they are designed to go somewhere immediately, to ensure continuity of power if they cannot go to the designated candidate they will go to the next appropriate candidate, as occurred with Molly.

If things go wrong you have Harry and Alfred on standby, they take Lara down, but release her immediately minus her demon which is kept in storage and the Mantle keeps her alive in its absence.

[Basil]

Mab wasn’t able to redirect the Winter Lady Mantle, like she can the Winter Knight Mantle , but she may not have wanted to, she certainly couldn’t control the Summer Lady Mantle, Maeve murdered the Summer Lady to deny Mab her choice. Retirement would allow control of the direction of the Mantles, Mother Winter uses the big circle on Demonreach so that it contains Herself, Mab and Lara but not Molly. The Circle protects reality from her extrusion into it. She retires and her Mantle goes to Mab, who accepts it displacing Mab’s Mantle which only has the choice of Lara, Molly is cut off from it by the circle and the Winter Queen Mantle cannot identify her, going instead to Lara.

The Mantles are creations, at a default they are designed to go somewhere immediately, to ensure continuity of power if they cannot go to the designated candidate they will go to the next appropriate candidate, as occurred with Molly.

If things go wrong you have Harry and Alfred on standby, they take Lara down, but release her immediately minus her demon which is kept in storage and the Mantle keeps her alive in its absence.

I disagree with Mab being unable to direct the Winter Lady Mantle.  She clearly intended it to go to Sarissa, but Maeve's murder of Lilly ruined that plan.  Maeve/Nemesis didn't count on Molly and Maeve/Nemesis probably thought that if Mab dealt with Maeve that Justine/Nemesis would get the Winter Lady Mantle. 

However, I agree with you that Mab has a way to deal with the White Court Demon.  We already know that Winter can create powerful unravelings that could undo the Red Vampire curse, and that Winter can quiet the Red Vampire Hunger.  The White Court Hunger seems much more separable from the Host.

How will Harry and Lara consumate their impending marriage if Lara "eats" him?  Or is the Winter Knight a power source that could be fed upon, but not devoured like the Big Foot Scion? 

[Arjan]

The Mister Microfiction disproved that Mister is the White God.

It just confirmed that he is fully white god and fully cat. He is incarnated as cat so of course as cat he has nine lives.

[LostInTime]

Mab's instruction to Harry was to "Kill Molly Carpenter". Not, kill lady Molly. Or kill the Winter Lady.
Names, offices and mantles are incredibly important to the fae. Mab summoned Kringle, not Vadderung. Same person, two different names and offices. Harry bound Molly because the Warden of Demonreach did a favor for Winter, by enforcing the Accords and binding Ethniu. Winter was obligated to repay the favor and he called upon them to pay for the funerals and medical bills.
Harry Dresden, The Za Lord, The Wizard of Chicago, or the Winter Knight could not have bound Ethniu. Only the Warden of Demonreach could have bound her.
Name and mantles, kid. That's how they get you.