Could the Za Lord's Guard defeat the White Council AND KotC Ways travel?

[Yuillegan]

Or does Uriel really have that much leeway?  I think it is more like he is given task by his Boss.  It isn't what Uriel wants as far as Christmas goes, or Harry's soul walk about, it is what his Boss wants.  He knows from the onset what he can give or not give..  Like an ambassador negotiating a treaty, yes, he/she is making a deal, but nothing can be bargained on his/her own, it is what the countries represented wants.

Ah, but is it a matter of Uriel being an automaton, an extension of his Boss' will? Or does Uriel get given tasks and it is up to him how to complete them (within his limits)?

I thin the latter is far more likely. Angels are not (as far as we know) merely extensions of their Creator. Uriel wouldn't have been able to con the Father of Lies if he didn't have some agency himself. Nor would he have been able to give Michael his Grace. That was the act of a being with will.

In the Dresdenverse Demonreach is the point.  It was there first. All else would seem to follow. You might speculate that the various factions sense something is going to happen there, even if they don't consciously know it.

That's a mildly linear way to look at it. Demonreach was there first to some perspectives but not to those who existed prior to Merlin messing with time (unless you are saying that Demonreach is an ontological paradox, which is fair). Regardless, you might be very right from a Doylist perspective also.

i'd point out no one stacked Butters in Chicago, he was there already when he signed on. And the Svartalves..likely have a presence in most major cities if they are that powerful. We don't know enough of those guys. They sound more Swiss or the like. Consulates in most major world cities? Likely have them almost certainly in NYC and DC, probably LA, London, etc. 

I agree with Mira, if the Almighty wanted the Knights to have easy access to the Ways, He'd have done it by now. He doesn't always do such big things, just makes Forthill run out of gas in front of Michael's when he needs a babysitter. Heck, when Michael caught a Way in to save Molly... he still had to go back to Idaho or whatever with Harry to drive his truck back.....

(Ok, there was a little fringe - Michael's truck is fairly new, yet it works fine with Harry for a thousand miles? Some Heavenly mechanic adds Tempest level shielding? Just like Michael's house doesn't have issues...)

Depends how far back you go. We are talking multi-dimensional time chess here. When did Butter's move to Chicago? What events transpired to make sure he became an ME there? Even if he lived his whole life there, what events made sure he stayed and became who he was so that he could be in the right place at the right time? Angels are architects of fate, after all.

The Svartalves probably do have presences in other cities, same for the White Court. Yet, their leadership was based in Chicago. Apart from writing reasons, what in-universe reasons could there be for them all being in Chicago? The answer is something to do with what is going to happen there, and what has already.

Exactly right about the Almighty. He organises things for his agents, or he has other agents do it for them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

And who is to say he didn’t organise it for Butters to remove the steel from Mab and not one of Harry’s other allies? One of the other wizards, an alpha, Murphy, one of Harry’s Banner.

The White God has Mab beat hands down when it comes to forward planning, he wanted one of his Knights to be owed a major favour by Mab, so he arranged it. Likely he will arrange that Butters can use it when   Butters really needs something like this. Conclusion. Butters has something coming up which will require a MAJOR favour by Mab to resolve, something Harry can’t help him with alone, and which cannot be resolved by the normal manipulation of mundane means and which is within Mab’s power to resolve but something Uriel is forbidden to do.

Mention of the Banner now has me thinking that the Knights of the Swords can create a Banner if the Denarians can...and if it was Butters would his Banner include a marching Polka Band? bah!

[morriswalters]

That's a mildly linear way to look at it. Demonreach was their first to some perspectives but not to those who existed prior to Merlin messing with time (unless you are saying that Demonreach is an ontological paradox, which is fair). Regardless, you might be very right from a Doylist perspective also.

I hate it when you force me to a dictionary to understand your point.

This all depends on when you think that Demonreach was created. Bob told you that Demonreach was created in five different times at the same time. So was it created in the past or the future?  Where did Merlin start drawing the pentagram.

[Mira]

I hate it when you force me to a dictionary to understand your point.

This all depends on when you think that Demonreach was created. Bob told you that Demonreach was created in five different times at the same time. So was it created in the past or the future?  Where did Merlin start drawing the pentagram.

I think the answer is it was created in both the past and the future if I remember and understood correctly what Alfred told Harry back in Cold Days.  That is why it is an effective prison, because some of it's inmates can time travel so if the prison wasn't created that way all they have to do is go forward or backward in time and escape.

[morriswalters]

Sounds pretty cool, but it begs the question.  Here is the problem. You can always go to a point where the prison doesn't exist, unless you go to the point of creation. But once it exists at some point in the past, it exists everywhere in the timeline from that point until the present unless destroyed or removed. So why create it at five different times? It does make a certain amount of sense if you build it backwards.

[Mira]

Sounds pretty cool, but it begs the question.  Here is the problem. You can always go to a point where the prison doesn't exist, unless you go to the point of creation. But once it exists at some point in the past, it exists everywhere in the timeline from that point until the present unless destroyed or removed. So why create it at five different times? It does make a certain amount of sense if you build it backwards.

Maybe because that takes into account all the dimensions? 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Timelines diverge, so perhaps the multiple builds were to deal with divergent time-lines to stymie time travelling prisoners from travelling from a point of divergence to a timeline Demonreach doesn’t exist or has been destroyed. This may suggest that there is only one Demonreach across the local group of universes where it is needed.

Demonreach 1 is built early on in the Multiverse and propagates forward with the deviding timelines, existing in each divergence.At one point a decision occurs resulting in a yes/no decision where Demonreach is destroyed and causing a divergence (most likely the failsafe referred to in Cold Day’s is employed due to a successful prison break). Demonreach 2 is rebuilt on the timeline it was destroyed, ny Merlin ensuring an inmate attempting to travel back to the failsafe event to escape finds himself back in rebuilt  Demonreach. Travelling across the time-lines still leaves you back in Demonreach even if it has been previously destroyed.

This posits that the Failsafe has been/will used four times in the entirety of Demonreach’s existence, I suggest Cold Days was one of those five instances where Harry failed, the Failsafe went off, and Demonreach got rebuilt on the parallel world where Harry failed,  securing it from escape in the world Harry succeeded.

I think this describes why it had to be be built four times, it has to exist in all reachable time-lines in the Multiverse by its inmates, including those where the inmates escape/get released resulting in the failsafe being used. By the time the inmates immolated by the failsafe can reconstitute themselves,  rebuilt  Demonreach is waiting for them. There is no escape.

[Yuillegan]

And who is to say he didn’t organise it for Butters to remove the steel from Mab and not one of Harry’s other allies? One of the other wizards, an alpha, Murphy, one of Harry’s Banner.

The White God has Mab beat hands down when it comes to forward planning, he wanted one of his Knights to be owed a major favour by Mab, so he arranged it. Likely he will arrange that Butters can use it when   Butters really needs something like this. Conclusion. Butters has something coming up which will require a MAJOR favour by Mab to resolve, something Harry can’t help him with alone, and which cannot be resolved by the normal manipulation of mundane means and which is within Mab’s power to resolve but something Uriel is forbidden to do.

Mention of the Banner now has me thinking that the Knights of the Swords can create a Banner if the Denarians can...and if it was Butters would his Banner include a marching Polka Band? bah!

Well, that would suggest Butter's has no Free Will or agency. There is an enormous gap between the agents of fate organising for Butter's to be in the right place at the right time, and getting him to actually do something like pull steel out of something. He has to choose to do it. You can lead the horse to water etc.

TWG largely seems to have everyone beaten when it comes to planning, considering He has Omniscience. That being said, does Omniscience extend to knowledge outside of Creation? Because if not, the Outsiders would be able to get around that particular problem. Considering even Uriel struggles to see Nemesis when it is hidden, my guess is that Omniscience only applies in Creation literally because that is where TWG is (the same way Demonreach's Intellectus only applies to the boundaries of his Island (and a bit of the Lake surrounding it). The boundaries of TWG are Creation, therefore He logically can only know (in an Omniscient way) what is inside Creation (inside himself perhaps, from some perspectives). He likely is aware of the Outside (like looking out your window) but doesn't have his cosmic knowledge of events and thoughts etc in the Outside. On the other hand, whenever the Outsiders break in they become a part of the events of Creation and so are influenced by it, which might reduce or even fully nullify their advantage.

As for TWG wanting his Knights to be owed a favor...that's a leap. In fact, it's conjecture. We don't have any idea what TWG wants because he hasn't said a thing in the series. The closest we have to communication is in Day One where Butter's sees the little information points (like WoW) of people he needs to talk to for missions - and Michael suggests that those messages come from the very top. Now you could argue Butter's saw an image on Mab that convinced him to take the metal out, but I think it's simpler than that. Harry, Butter's friend, asked him to help someone who needed help (Mab). Butter's is a good person, and helped. Doesn't need to be more special than that. The consequences may well be that Mab now owes Butter's a favor (which is speculation by the way, unless someone has some actual evidence saying it). But it doesn't mean that was the intention of TWG. TWG, at least according to Jim, simply created a sandbox and allows people to make their own choices and doesn't interfere too much. It's your series to interpret how you like but I can't see evidence in that scene that TWG actually wanted a favor owed to Butters.

I hate it when you force me to a dictionary to understand your point.

This all depends on when you think that Demonreach was created. Bob told you that Demonreach was created in five different times at the same time. So was it created in the past or the future?  Where did Merlin start drawing the pentagram.

My apologies, no one should ever be forced to read a dictionary! I had a grade school teacher who used to make us write out the dictionary as a punishment. I suspect he hoped we would learn something. The only thing it taught me was to really hate the dictionary, and that teacher. But who knows maybe it did help my vocabulary?

Well, not that I am a physicist but my friends in that field might point out that if you're in several separate places in space-time (something normally thought impossible) you're not really in any one of them i.e. the question doesn't make sense as it is an impossible notion. The other way to look at it is that Merlin was out of regular time, he was in his own time, he was beyond time in the normal universe. Time is a relative concept after all. To those outside Merlin, it would appear differently to how Merlin perceived it himself. Think of it as Merlin in his own little bubble touching several other bubbles. Or perhaps a little more accurately, each universe is a layer on the others and Merlin was in a bit of every layer.

In an ontological paradox, Merlin would have always known about Demonreach because the Island would have always been there -  a mysterious prison for monsters. One day he goes to find out about it and realises that he has to go back and create it, and so does so.

However - this isn't what Jim seems to suggest. Merlin created the prison in five separate times for reasons unknown. This suggests to me that Merlin ended up being in more than one universe at once, and wherever he ended up wasn't the universe he came from. Think about what Vadderung said to Harry about paradox - two universes created, "one where you never existed and one where you failed to kill your grandfather". I think this is the hint. Merlin created a paradox and so FIVE universes were created (I know it's mad but bear with me). Actually, six universes were present altogether but we will get to that.

In Merlin's original timeline (his original universe - the terms are interchangeable here), Merlin never created Demonreach and basically vanished. We'll call it Universe One. In universes two to six (i.e. the five new timelines) Demonreach exists but slightly differently.

This is due to the Amber-like nature of the universe. If you haven't read the series, the main thing is that beings who have the power can visit any parallel universe between absolute order and absolute chaos. Each universe is a parallel but with slight elements changed, based on whatever the person visiting is looking for. The closer to order the universe is, the more like the original order universe it is and the more the rules are fixed. The closer to chaos, the more like the chaos universe it is and the less fixed the rules are. There is some speculation about whether the universes that these multiverse-walkers travel to are created by them or always have existed (and I think there are good arguments for either) but I believe the series implies that the universes have always been there since Creation (but it's been a while since I read any of those books so I could be wrong).

Jim has said several times his multiverse works in much the same way, but it's choices that spin off new universe, to the point where there is essentially an infinite amount of universes (or close to). I suspect that Heaven is one of the poles of reality (i.e. Order) and Outside is the other (Chaos). In any case, Merlin creates five universes with his choice to create Demonreach. I am not sure if this was his intention or not, but I suspect that was the way it had to be once he created it in five separate timelines. Why five? Well that seems to be the magic number associated with circles, and as the Island was meant to be a multidimensional prison for multidimensional beings, I think that was what he had to do. So these five universes are all very, very similar but slightly different - the main difference is when the Island was built with respect to them.

For example, Universe One is Merlin's original timeline that doesn't have Demonreach. Basically, a hellscape. Maybe Merlin knew maybe not, but that's how it is.

E.g. Universe Two is the one where Merlin made the prison after the Ice Age. Universe Three is the universe where Merlin made it in Ancient Mesopotamia. You get the idea. Universe Six is likely in the future i.e. 2040ish Empty Night apocalypse time. Now here's where it gets tricky.

All these universes (except for Universe One of course) contain Demonreach, and technically he was in all five new universes at the same time. This overlap means that in each new universe (and each parallel universe spawned from it) that each Demonreach was created in five separate times in their own timelines, at the same time by Merlin YET it's the original five that are most important. Each is like an anchor of the prison. If any of them fell, not only would the prison fail but all subsequent parallel universes spawned from them would also collapse. And multidimensional monsters would roam the multiverse eating everything.

My guess then is that Harry's universe is one of the Five, maybe even the one Merlin stayed in. Of course, there are potentially multiple Merlin's so it gets a little trickier. But the point is, the Outsiders want to take down Harry's universe in order to break his part of Demonreach and unleash whatever is inside (whilst doing massive damage to the multiverse in their war with Heaven). I believe that sometime in Harry's future Demonreach will be created, and Harry will see it. Which doesn't necessarily mean Harry is in Universe Six (because remember that all of them now overlap and so all have that moment now). But I do think it's likely Harry is in Universe Six, for multiple reasons, mostly to do with the end times. Maybe Harry helps create Demonreach, or has to defend Merlin creating it, either way I suspect he will witness it. That's inevitable if he lives long enough.

I have no idea what that will look like from the outside, but from Merlin's perspective I suspect it would have looked like seeing several universes/timelines all at the same time. Which to an outside observer might look rather ghostly as the Island flickers in and out (along with Merlin) of the observer's reality - this is unfortunately also one of those quantum viewing issues.

I know that was a bit complicated and convoluted but I hope it makes some sort of sense. 

EDIT: Only just realised Conspiracy Theorist was saying a similar thing. I think we're in the same ballpark, even if our journey's are a bit different.

[morriswalters]

I like dictionary's, I'm simply lazy. 

The only piece of high fantasy I've read is LOTR.  But if I buy what you're telling me Jim is selling I have to accept that a man born at least 1000 years ago, figured out dimensional time travel, did it and built a multidimensional jail, fought monsters to fill his jail and then went out and raised hell and chased Mab and others depending on which version of the Camelot stories you've read. Not only that but he picked a place you couldn't get to in the time he did it. One that he had absolutely no knowledge of since no European had been there yet.

[Yuillegan]

I like dictionary's, I'm simply lazy. 

The only piece of high fantasy I've read is LOTR.  But if I buy what you're telling me Jim is selling I have to accept that a man born at least 1000 years ago, figured out dimensional time travel, did it and built a multidimensional jail, fought monsters to fill his jail and then went out and raised hell and chased Mab and others depending on which version of the Camelot stories you've read. Not only that but he picked a place you couldn't get to in the time he did it. One that he had absolutely no knowledge of since no European had been there yet.

This is why that old theory of Griffyn's about Merlin using an Archangel's grace (specifically Rafael) to make Demonreach was so appealing.

Considering the power Merlin was using, he would have had to have incredible, even somewhat godlike knowledge. Considering Vadderung was his teacher, maybe that's a big part of it. I don't for a second believe it was Merlin's plan alone. Nothing we've seen suggest events like that happen in a vacuum. Big powers get together, and Merlin would have needed several to be in on it with him. I wouldn't be surprised if an Archangel was involved in some fashion especially given Uriel's meddling.

The human mind can only handle so much information or energy without being burned out - and given Merlin used the creative force of the universe to do his will I suspect the consequences are greater. He would have had to insulate his mind if it were human, or become not human (i.e. something that could handle that kind of power). I truly don't know but people seem to talk about Merlin in Dresden's world less like a god and more like a man, so I guess he insulated himself. Which Harry has shown can be done well enough.

I also have long wondered why he picked some random island inside America. Apart from Doylist reasons of course. My guess is that either a) he was guided by higher powers or b) there was significance magically of the Island already. Or maybe the Island moves, and it once was near England. But that seems insane...right?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Build back early enough and Demonreach is in every time line, necessary as some of its prisoners will by necessity predate Merlin, nor can we presume that just Merlin was involved if capturing Prisoners, he just made it easier to contain them. The various heroes and monster slayers of legend would have been involved

The idea of a roving island does have the benefit that if the monster won’t come to you then you can go to the Monster. However Demonreach may have been built where it is because the land surrounding it would be sparsely populated until the modern era, perfect for a drag out fight between behemoths. Think the Old World/New World split. It made sense to put it somewhere in the New World, and then you just needed a strong and long existing Genius Loci. The Red Court were already likely setting up shop in South America pretending to be gods so North America it was.

On the other hand it may have been built there because one day a Starborn would take up residence nearby and become the Warden. If the four failsafes are as I posited the reason for rebuilding, then Harry at the centre of one (perhaps the first one) may have been reason to build it there. Time travel does bugger up cause and effect.

[morriswalters]

For fun think out of the box. If Merlin started building the jail now and built it backwards that would describe what Jim wrote. It would only exist in the past after being created now.

Consider that Bonea has some story purpose to serve. She may know a number of recipes for pancakes, but her progenitor was around when the White God said. Let there be light! And she has no angelic restrictions. Here's what she could know.

“I witnessed the birth of time itself. I watched the mortal coil spring forth from perfect darkness. I watched the stars form, watched this world coalesce, watched as life was breathed into it and as your kind rose to rule it.”

[Conspiracy Theorist]

What’s more likely is that when Harry sits down with Bonea to have “The Talk” with her, he is going to come away knowing vastly more about sex than when he sat down.

[morriswalters]

Harry can always tell her about vampire sex and unicorn rope bondage. Two things about which he has personal knowledge.  But since he evidently doesn't know that intercourse produces offspring perhaps he should call in a professional.