Ages of Characters

[Con]

So it occurred to me around the time I got to Margaret le fey that you could just check the Dresden FIles timeline for most of these people.... but I'd already got that far down the list...

So in order of eldest to youngest:
Pre-Reality: Walkers: Behind, Before, Beside. (They had to be exiled from reality when reality was formed right?)
Pre-Planet: Uriel (Has been fighting wars since before this planet was gaseous)
Shagnasty (Naagloshii helped create the world before going evil)
Lash/Lasciel (Debatable but assuming she has all the memories and knowledge of Lasciel)
Anduriel(I have a WAG Theory he was the Original Uriel but assuming based on what we know)
Denarian Fallen Angels (Ursiel, Magog, Namshiel etc)
Demonreach (Made outside of time...)
Mother Winter (WOJ is she's been around since the Ice Ages)
Ferrovax (WOJ Dragons were used to create things like the Amazon River, massive geoshifts type which only really occurred after the Ice Age)
Ethniu? (She's a Titan could mean she was born when Titans rule the Earth could be later on)
Mother Summer (WOJ is their was one other Mother Summer before this one but she's still old as dirt... maybe even literally)
Vadderung (assuming he's the original Woden/Odin)
Hades (Tricky but Hades is rarely in Primordial myths and was a son of the Titans so)
River in his Shoulders? (Actually what started this idea for me. Theories range from 6000 years to 1000 years ago. Depending on when he 'crossed the ice')
Red King (4000 years old)
Arinna Ortega (Before written Language)
Nicodemus (2000 years ago)
Polonius Latessa (Was a temple prostitute according to the Archive)
Diedre (Tessa 'invested' 2000 years)
Lord Raith (WOJ he's a couple thousand years old '2 thousand years of paranoia' built up)
Quintus Cassius 'snakeboy' (Corrected by KsG. Latin name probably Latin Rome)
Genowska
Eldest Gruff (I like to think he tutored Titania as the wise old tutor to current monarch trope)
Mab/Titania (William the Conqeuror/Arthurian myths were 5th century to 9th)
Sigrun Gard (Old Norse 'Geats' 6th century to 14th)
Erlking (Herne was shakespeare. Erlkoenig was 1800s poem. Give him the benefit of the doubt make him 1000 given the amount of respect he gets.)
Vlad Drakul (someone wanna do the 666 maths for me?)
Rashid  (Fought the evil Arab Wizard. 700s ad.)
Dracula
Bob (Medieval France Etienne the Enchanter picked him up)
Mavra (600 years old)
Duke Ortega (conquistador)
Ancient Mai (400 years old)
Langtry/Ebenezar/LtW (WOJ they were young men on various sides of the 7 years war. Same age. Give or take a decade)
Corpsetaker (Apparently Harry says she was White Council around this time as well. Credit to newbie fillmoreb)
la Fortier (Senior Council)
Maeve/Aurora (One lady each before they assumed the thrones.17th century composer)
Lara Raith (Been around for a few centuries, knew Luccio when she was young spent the 19th century in Japan)
Simon Petrovitch (He had considerable influence during WW1/Russian Revolution)
Luccio (1800 or so. WOJ is she was a child during War of 1812)
Rasmussen (Ursiels host Since 1849 *dead now*)
Kemmler (Had a century to plan WW1)
Grevane (Appeared in Luccio short story)
Bjorn (*Shrug* one of the few Veteran Wardens around. I like to think he's been around for awhile.)
Donald Morgan (Fought in WW1 against Kemmler)
Margaret le Fey
Justin DuMorne (Picked up Bob at Kemmlers defeat. Pietrovich's apprentice. Some implications he was his apprentice during WW1)
Michael Carpenter (Vietnam Vet)
Marcone
Thomas
Murphy
Harry
Butters
Susan
Mister
Molly
Mouse
Maggie

Feel free to correct, add or discuss.

[fillmoreb]

Pop Bob in there.  He's at least 600 years old.  I'd put him near Mavra and Drakul.

[Con]

Pop Bob in there.  He's at least 600 years old.  I'd put him near Mavra and Drakul.

Good Point. Added.

And Welcome to the site

[fillmoreb]

Thanks, been lurking for too long.  Decided to try to be a bit more active.  If you want to be really pedantic about it, you can pop Sue in either before or after Demonreach.  She roamed the earth about 67 million years ago. 

[Con]

Thanks, been lurking for too long.  Decided to try to be a bit more active.  If you want to be really pedantic about it, you can pop Sue in either before or after Demonreach.  She roamed the earth about 67 million years ago. 

Haha I think I'll stick to Sentient Character beings for now.

and added Mother Summer as well.

 8:14 pm: added Lord Raith and Lara Raith.

8:17 pm: added Sigrun Gard

[fillmoreb]

Corpsetaker is a bit older than you have her in the chronology.  In Ghost Story, Harry mentions that she was a member of the White Council before the French and Indian War.  (Right near the start of chapter 41)

That would put her birth at around 1700 or earlier.  Depending on how long before the war she was a member, and for how long she was a member, that would place her either before or after Ancient Mai.

Sorry for the piecemeal replies.  I'm being slow to think of things.

Edit: Could be even earlier, if she wasn't being hyperbolic when she told Molly that "[she had been] crushing minds like yours centuries before your great-grandfather's grandfather left the Old Country."  Someone that age would have left the Old Country around 1800, and centuries (plural) before that would be 1600 or earlier.

[Con]

Corpsetaker is a bit older than you have her in the chronology.  In Ghost Story, Harry mentions that she was a member of the White Council before the French and Indian War.  (Right near the start of chapter 41)

That would put her birth at around 1700 or earlier.  Depending on how long before the war she was a member, and for how long she was a member, that would place her either before or after Ancient Mai.

Sorry for the piecemeal replies.  I'm being slow to think of things.

Edit: Could be even earlier, if she wasn't being hyperbolic when she told Molly that "[she had been] crushing minds like yours centuries before your great-grandfather's grandfather left the Old Country."  Someone that age would have left the Old Country around 1800, and centuries (plural) before that would be 1600 or earlier.

huh nice pull added to just under 7 years war cause I think I vaguely remember WOJ saying Corpsetaker as a character in his story around that time, now that you mention it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Redcap would date from around 1300, his first appearance in folklore is as the familiar of William de Soulis, a historical character executed in 1320. Place him before Mavra and after Rashid.

Note Redcaps haunt ruined castles, so Harry had better get his repairs done sharpish if he doesn’t want an uninvited house guest.

Remember a lot of beings are born out of the Never Never because of people’s belief in them (see the Baku in Day One), so for some characters it should be possible to pin their existence from the date they first appear in folklore, or even urban legend if such a date can be determined.

Then there is Mister, definitely sentient given he has had his own POV story and is about 18 by the time of Christmas Eve the furthest current point in the Dresdenverse. He was 3 years old by Storm Front.

And Mouse, again we have had a POV for him  and he would have been born a couple of months before Blood Rites, but you may have to figure in dog years. That also gives you My Shadow.

[Con]

I've always assumed Redcap was like the Eldest. I'm avoiding using the word mantle. More just title of the biggest and baddest. He's pretty proficient in firearms. I mean so is kincaid but it's rare among the golden oldies.

Edited to add Erlking I was holding off for reasons given.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Cassius is much older, especially as his full name was Quintus Cassius.  That suggests he could have been born at least 1500 years ago.  It was the guy that Harry saw crucified when he soulgazed Ursiel who was headed for the California gold rush when he became a denarian.  That's the old west connection you're think of.

[Con]

Cassius is much older, especially as his full name was Quintus Cassius.  That suggests he could have been born at least 1500 years ago.  It was the guy that Harry saw crucified when he soulgazed Ursiel who was headed for the California gold rush when he became a denarian.  That's the old west connection you're think of.

Ooooh yeah you're right. I was thinking Quintus Cassius was a pretentious name for the Old West, but I just figured He was a pretentious douche who either chose his own name or was in a family of venatores with minor talent who became a Denarian.

[Yuillegan]

Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.

I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.

So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.

So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.

Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.

Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.

Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.

Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.

I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.

[Con]

Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.

Fair enough that WOJ did occur to me at some point, but I was doing things as linearly as possible as for Creation several billion years before the world coalesced into a planet, let alone life, let alone dinosaurs. Let alone the humans whom the Gods needed for worship. So if said Gods were their for Creation, they would still need to be somehow present for humans. Humans are for the most part linear, so as Humans understood them this was as linear as I could make them.

I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.

Right which also suggests time as a factor as measurable by one moment to the next. Rashid says most of the time the Outer Gates could be quite peaceful, and other things like 'most years it wouldn't matter. Admittedly he also says 'Always in danger'. All of those are still time measurements. I'm not disagreeing with you exactly just offering another perspective. Human linear as it is.

So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.

Said demons would seem to have been confirmed by Thomas and the nature of the Oblivion War. Which again depends on Human knowledge or memory of them within a certain time frame of soceity.

So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.

Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.

Odin probably. Ethniu I'm not convinced. Hades-I just don't see him being at Creation. My best guess is Underworld was created to imprison Titans, Demons, Old Gods. (Although Greek Myths that was more Tartarus who himself was a bit more Primordial/Titan/Personification). Then they gave the most Responsible Gods or Exiled the most Scarey ones as Keepers of the Underworld when they needed a place for human souls to go.

Fair enough but at what point did Lucifer and Denarians rebel. Seems to me once Humans were created and given Free Will. Lucifer didn't like the new adopted step children, or wanted Free Will. Denarians similar.

Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.

'As old as there were people'. Is partially my argument all these beings needed people to anchor them somehow, maybe not give them life, but give them a framework of some kind. Time included.

Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.

Dragons seem to have been created to enact direct physical change on the planet and reality. I can see why that offended or pissed off all of the Gods who were constrained or couldn't act as directly at the time.

Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.

Conflicting sources about origin of Black Court. Drakul seemed to have preferred Nicodemus's method of a handful of effective subordinates. Dracula turned them into a Plague. My WAG is the Black Plague helped launched by the Denarians was a zombie apocalypse of Black Court. 666 also seems to indicate confluence of events time being one of them.

I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.

Etruscans were 900s BC till Roman Kingdom became Roman Republic in 500s BC, but a few things. 1. WOJ said 2000 not closer to 3000. 2. WOJ recently is he hasn't thought too much about the origins of the White Court so Etruscans as a measurement may not be feasible. 3. Possible White Court did it as a petty cats paw against everyone using Latin.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I've always assumed Redcap was like the Eldest. I'm avoiding using the word mantle. More just title of the biggest and baddest. He's pretty proficient in firearms. I mean so is kincaid but it's rare among the golden oldies.

Yes but remember the Faerie Courts themselves are fairly recent innovations. They would have been populated by existing Fae beings, but also would have attracted newcomers. He may have started off something like Toot, but was reborn as the Redcap when DeSoulis impressed him as a familiar and this led him to become a totally different thing, the Redcap, the first of his kind.

WOJ has it that some powerful  Fae do indeed come into being like this. Toot’s growth may mean that this process is happening to him. Is Toots future as a full grown Fae brandishing a bloody pizza cutter as The Deep Pan?

We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.

Interestingly De Soulis is a perfect candidate for a past Winter Knight, suggesting a parallel with Harry and Toot.

[fillmoreb]

We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.

Personally, I never thought of Redcap as a separate species of Fae.  I believe the Redcap is just a fairly high ranking Sidhe, and his changeling offspring would just become a standard Sidhe.  I view the whole Redcap thing as an affectation of his.  He dips his hat in blood to terrify people, and goes by the name Redcap.  I know this doesn't jive with the real world mythology of Redcaps, but I think Jim just took some poetic license on that.