Peace Talks interesting things and questions

[KurtinStGeorge]

If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.

Besides Harry’s staff gave off a whiff of sulphur when he used Hellfire, no indication of that with a Eb.

Good point.  Also, in the physical world add enough sulfur to a fire and it will turn the flame a nice bright electric blue color.  This is another indication that both the smell and color of hellfire have more to do with what it represents than it's physical qualities.   

[Yuillegan]

I don't think that is totally true.  In the past people did manage for a while at least to settle there, there are ruins.  Now with the means of "bad vibs" for lack of a better word, after a while Alfred got rid of them, however they still were there and could have done mischief.  The Denarians got on to the Island with no trouble and Namshiel certianly could have done lots of damage if he felt it was worth his while to do it.  I wouldn't be shocked if he was perfectly aware that Alfred and the prison were there, it just didn't serve his purpose to mess with it at that time.  Finally and most importantly at the beginning of Skin Game, Harry mentions that one of the things he had been learning that past year, is how to deploy the Island defenses, which if I remember correctly [I've only had one or two swallows of coffee] hadn't been deployed as they should have been for some time.  That could have been the main reason why Maeve and Company had been able to drop in by air in the first place, alone, Alfred wasn't able to fully deploy the Island defenses.

Now that I've had my coffee and had time to wake up and look it up.  Page 6 Skin Game, bolding mine;

There you have it, without a Warden, the Island was vulnerable, or I should say some had some vulnerabilities..  Apparently Maeve and Company knew that, that is why they chose the time and the manner of their attack in Cold Days.  While yes, in Cold Days Harry was the Warden, but because of his recovery time etc from injury, he hadn't been on the Island long enough to fully understand what the job entailed, or how to do his new job.  Heck, until he came back to the Island in Cold Days with Bob, he didn't even know it was a maximum security prison.  Maeve, would also have known that, that is why they attacked when they did.

Well, Alfred drove the inhabitants insane. Or rather, he didn't stop the evilness of all those beings imprisoned (described as psychic body heat) from affecting those mortals who tried settling there. I don't know if Alfred even mildly viewed them as a threat. I doubt he even considered them more than beings on the Island.

The Denarians did manage to get on the Island, all the Fallen and at least some of their hosts knowing what the Island really is. My interpretation is that Alfred also didn't view them as an immediate threat, and Nicodemus was cognizant enough to realise that there was no current Warden. But they also were careful enough to not provoke the Island either. Having mortal hosts gives those particular Fallen a great advantage, as Alfred reacts far more strongly to sprit beings than mortal ones. But if it were so easy for Namshiel to crack open the prison, why hasn't he already? Also, it is possible the Denarians don't want what's in the prison to get out either.

Don't worry, I used to be like that with coffee - I understand the feeling. Had to back off for health reasons, but when I do have it I miss drinking it quite as often.

Back to the topic, the quote you point out does show what I am talking about. Demonreach despite not having Harry activate defenses still activated a shield and held off a freaking Walker and an army of Outsiders and cultists. That's seriously strong. Nemesis was only as successful as it was because a lot of energy was being focussed elsewhere, and the Faeries clearly have some bond with earth spirits (although Mab also notes that Demonreach chose to not take them down either...so perhaps eventually he would have shut them down anyway).

Maeve knew because Nemesis knew, I suspect. Not for any other real reason. One wonders what the Outsiders have been doing these many years before there was a Warden, before Harry got strong? My guess is the Black Council are responsible for putting things in motion...but we shall see.

Mab calculated that if she held the Peace Talks on the summer solstice (her weakest day) it would draw out the Fomor and whoever was behind them. She may have suspected Ethnui as a major unaccounted for power if so Chicago was a logical place just in case someone like Ethnui turned up, because of Demonreach and Harry. The Fomor were very confident suggesting they thought they could easily win, and if it was Ethnui she would fall for the trap due to her emotional nature and overconfidence. Ethnui couldn’t help attacking at Mab’s big event.

Mab had arms caches in place for years in Chicago so she had be expecting trouble if she held an event there.

Basically she rigged the game, just like she usually does.

Ethnui may have been a worst case scenario, for Harry it was business as normal.

That's an interesting theory - but did she set the date of the Peace Talks? I am pretty sure it was the Fomor who called them.

I think Mab always knew she would have to fight someone, not just the Fomor, in Chicago. Prepare for every scenario rather than a specific one.

I don't think I agree that anything about Battle Ground was "business as normal" for Harry or anyone else. It was a sucker punch on behalf of the Fomor, that seems clear to me.

Nemesis knows the dark ley lines running from the island, and seeks to utilise that power. That much is apparent from Cold Days.

Mab would be aware also of the Knights connections with Chicago, again a further ally in an attack on that City, and that the Erl King’s domain leads into the Chicago FBI Building.

I suspect the FBI building isn't the only mortal world connection to the Erlking's domain. Any hunting domain would work I would imagine. That's why Harry picked it. Same for the bank vault leading to Hades' Underworld. It's not like Chicago is the only way into the Never never.

If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.

Besides Harry’s staff gave off a whiff of sulphur when he used Hellfire, no indication of that with a Eb.

I think she is just at the edge of the range, rather than being mysteriously old. And we don't know she doesn't spend a lot of time in the Never never - in Summer Knight she is the one with the Faerie contacts after all. But I suspect she is simply old as that is what suited the character Jim made. That being said, she would be a good sucker punch.

You're right probably about the hellfire too, I think.

Isn't her son a sun god? That qualifies as a being in my book.

My question about Eb more relates to would Demonreach be able to ID him as a Denarian after the fact? Does intellectus provide that sort of metaphysical memory? Alfred may also be able to ID the blackstaff as well if they can.

I'm not sure how much Nemesis knows about the island unless they possessed a Warden at some point in time. They may know what's stored there and have an idea of some of the defenses but really where else would they learn the details?

Really though I agree. The crux of the matter is where did the Bronze come from?

Sorry Kloe, I wasn't clear.

I meant not just any god - it's clear from the myth that it was specifically Ethniu's son that took out Balor.

Ah, I get that. Using the Intellectus as a detector. It would probably work for Denarians, but seemingly nothing but logic and intuition works for Nemesis - even Uriel can't always be sure.

Nemesis probably has it's own Intellectus as much as anything else. It's an immortal timeless being from beyond Creation. I don't think it seeks and learns in the same way beings from Inside do.

The bronze is the key. I suspect this will come up...eventually. Jim can leave threads for decades after all.

Question #1: I doubt that it is important who did it.  Maybe we will find out when if Harry summons Ethniu to do something horrible to another monster that is a much larger threat, so that it makes the possibility of losing control of Ethniu worth the risk.

Question #2:  I seriously doubt that Ebenezer is a denarian.  It's a good hypothesis because it fits the facts, but as Yuillegan points out, it doesn't make a great deal of sense for Ebenezer to have made such a deal.  So, I have to ask myself if there another hypothesis that fits the facts, and I think there is. 

Why is hellfire red?  (I feel like Sir Bedevere in Monty Python and the Holly Grail.)  It's not because it uses fire magic or that it comes from some kind of hellish volcano filled with red lava.  It's symbolic of the red hot anger of the Fallen ones.  Yuelligan tells us that Ebenezer is barely in control of his actions.  In fact, Eb will lose control and would have killed Harry if Harry had actually been on the dock.  Ebenezer is about to use black magic because he's incredibly angry and believes that he is right and is doing the right thing.

Therefore, my hypothesis is all black magic; or at least all black magic motivated by anger, is red or of a reddish color.  Whereas, Harry's normal fire magic; or any regular fire magic used by any other wizard who uses it, is red because the fire they call forth is using oxygen for it's fuel.

Isn't it important who armed Ethniu? It's almost certainly one of (if not THE) being behind everything, all the Black Council stuff. It's basically the big bad (or one of them), at least to me. I don't know that Ethniu needs to be summoned to be questioned. Harry can question beings in their cells after all.

To your second rebuttal, I think you're probably right about Eb not being a Denarian. I just thought the imagery that Jim used was rather similar. Not so sure about the red being dark magic, but I see where you are coming from. The main thing to me is, Eb has a staff that protects him from black magic (and unless I am much mistaken) why didn't he use that if he was going to do black magic? I thought he was just using his regular staff. I suspect the red just means he was angry, and using power and heat. Harry's runes flare all the time after all.

Good point.  Also, in the physical world add enough sulfur to a fire and it will turn the flame a nice bright electric blue color.  This is another indication that both the smell and color of hellfire have more to do with what it represents than it's physical qualities.   

I agree, although the color thing is probably more to do with Jim than anything realistic. It isn't like Harry's color went blue when he had Lasciel and used Hellfire.

[vincentric]

Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.

Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.

The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.

I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.

[Mira]

Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.

Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.

The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.

I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.

No, he says now that there is a Warden in charge of defenses again, that kind of assault is not a threat. page 6 Skin Game

I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden. If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed.  Even Mab, as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach's soil.

To be totally secure, the Island needs a Warden, Alfred cannot do it all on his own.  That is what Harry found out in that year on the Island when he learned the ins and outs of it's defenses.  It could be that it was mere luck that it hadn't been successfully invaded before..  Or that might be why the fact that it had gone Wardenless for so long was kept a secret.  Because with no Warden the defenses were vulnerable.

Well, Alfred drove the inhabitants insane. Or rather, he didn't stop the evilness of all those beings imprisoned (described as psychic body heat) from affecting those mortals who tried settling there. I don't know if Alfred even mildly viewed them as a threat. I doubt he even considered them more than beings on the Island.

The point Harry was making on page six of Skin Game is he learned that the Island had defenses that only he as the Warden could activate or order Alfred to activate.  Before he took full charge as Warden, the Island was vulnerable to the type of attack we saw in Cold Days.  Now that he is the Warden in full charge, that cannot happen.  That is why at the end of Battle Ground, Nemesis tried to trick him though Justine to get inside, only with the Warden's permission can anyone get inside as long as the defenses are fully up.

[Yuillegan]

Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.

Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.

The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.

I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.

Yes, yes it did.

The first thing I saw was the curtain wall around the island’s shoreline. It was nothing but a flicker of opalescent light, like a dense aurora borealis, stretching from the water’s edge up into the October sky. It cast an eerie glow over the trees of the island, steeping them in menacing black shadow, and its reflection in the waters of the lake was three or four times bigger and more colorful than it should have been.
 As the Hunt rushed closer, I could make out other details, too. There was a small fleet of boats surrounding the island—it looked like something out of WWII’s Pacific theater. Some of the boats were modest recreational models, several at least the size of the Water Beetle , and three looked like tugboat-barge units, the kind that could ferry twenty loaded train cars around the lake.
 I could see motion in the waters around the shore. Things were swarming up out of the lake, hideous and fascinating—hundreds of them. They smashed into Demonreach’s curtain wall. Light pulsed in liquid concentric circles where they touched it, and shrieks of alien agony stretched the air toward a breaking point. The waters within twenty feet of the shore bubbled and thrashed in a demonic frenzy.
 I felt a pulse of power stir in the air, and a bolt of sickly green energy lashed across the waters and slammed into the curtain wall. The entire wall dimmed for a second, but then resurged as the island resisted the attack. I tracked the bolt back to the barge and saw a figure in a weird, writhing cloak standing on the deck, facing the island—Sharkface.

I have bolded the important lines.

So what would you call that? Seems like a shield to me. And Harry didn't activate any defenses. The Island did it all on it's own. Passive defences, that I imagine are always on even at minimum settings. It actually held off not just Before, but his whole army. Harry even says as much in Skin Game I believe. Although, eventually the barges would have got through. Pesky mortals and their ability to go through spirit-stopping shields.

Some trouble, Before didn't even touch the shore. Harry had to go into the water to "kill" him.

The water near me stirred and then a Sharkface rose up out of it as if on an elevator, slow, his mouth tilted up into a small smile. He stood there on the water perhaps five feet away from me. His eyeless face looked smug.

And that is where he stays until Harry goes for him.

I don't know what your getting at about Lily and Maeve putting the circle up first. Regardless, they airdropped in.

No, he says now that there is a Warden in charge of defenses again, that kind of assault is not a threat. page 6 Skin Game

To be totally secure, the Island needs a Warden, Alfred cannot do it all on his own.  That is what Harry found out in that year on the Island when he learned the ins and outs of it's defenses.  It could be that it was mere luck that it hadn't been successfully invaded before..  Or that might be why the fact that it had gone Wardenless for so long was kept a secret.  Because with no Warden the defenses were vulnerable.

The point Harry was making on page six of Skin Game is he learned that the Island had defenses that only he as the Warden could activate or order Alfred to activate.  Before he took full charge as Warden, the Island was vulnerable to the type of attack we saw in Cold Days.  Now that he is the Warden in full charge, that cannot happen.  That is why at the end of Battle Ground, Nemesis tried to trick him though Justine to get inside, only with the Warden's permission can anyone get inside as long as the defenses are fully up.

I think Vincentric misspoke, I think he meant to say "isn't a threat" rather than "is a threat".

I agree, the Island was designed to have a Warden. Obviously the Merlin accounted for the possibility of their being periods of time with no Warden physically present, otherwise the Warden would have to be their all the time. So it clearly works to some degree without it. And Harry has left defenses "on" a certain setting before leaving the Island, just like when he tells Demonreach to go maximum defenses after entombing Thomas before he goes out to fight the Fomor in Battle Ground.

But I agree that the Island would be at it's most defendable when the Warden is physically present on the Island and knows the ins-and-outs.

I suspect it isn't just luck at that level. I suspect higher forces were doing their best to ensure the Island didn't get assaulted before it was a bit more defendable. That being said, I suspect the opposition forces were doing their level best and that's why the attacks eventually got through.

[Mira]

I suspect it isn't just luck at that level. I suspect higher forces were doing their best to ensure the Island didn't get assaulted before it was a bit more defendable. That being said, I suspect the opposition forces were doing their level best and that's why the attacks eventually got through.

Or more likely the fact that the Island was vulnerable without a Warden was kept a secret.  It took the infecting of someone on the inside, i.e. Maeve, to reveal how the Island could be assaulted.  As Eb points out in his journal, it seems that a "higher power" was on their side when Harry stumbled onto the job of Warden.  In Cold Days while he wasn't fully engaged in the job yet, he managed to put together a defense of it with the help of friends.

[BrainFireBob]

1. Who cut out Ethniu's eye?
Obviously would have to be something big, both literally and figuratively. It's our assumption that the Black Council are the ones who gave her the Eye, as it fits their M.O.

That being said, it could have been another group. Say, Tessa and Imariel and her more chaotic Denarians? They all love chaos and destruction. But also, what about the Outsiders themselves?

I could definitely see He Who Walks Behind having a role. He's been established as more than a demon, more than a hitman; he's a manipulator and a peer of Uriel. So he could definitely tear out the eye of a Goddess. He also could be large enough to leave such big scars. We have to remember that anything that could scar Titanic Bronze on a Titan is a serious being.

Another candidate is Lucifer himself. But why he would get that involved is harder to work out.


2. Is Ebenezar a Denarian?Now, it could just be about the amount of power in the staff that Ebenezar was putting into it. But. I seem to remember Harry's own runes on his staff used to glow the same color when using magic while he possessed a Coin. Considering how angry and barely controlled Ebenezar is...I could see a Denarian egging him along. One of the big things with Denarians is the reveal, the sucker punch. It would be quite the surprise to learn he is a Denarian.

The question is why? He already is a wizard, so he has power. He already wields the Blackstaff, so he already has a dark deal. Why get another? And when would he have done it? Why isn't he aiding the other Denarians?

Hard to say on any accounts. Perhaps, like Mab, he needs all the power he can get to do what he feels he has to. Cowl felt much the same. Simon even expressed sentiments of frustration on the limitations of being a wizard in the Paranet Papers. When he would have done it is impossible to tell, but I would guess it would have been before the Blackstaff was his (in this hypothetical scenario). And perhaps we just don't see him aid the other Denarians because it's all in the background. Or perhaps he is a rebel (along with his Fallen) and doesn't care to help the others. Or perhaps...he is leading the other Nemesis-infected beings, and he and his Fallen are in the same boat.

I assumed it was Ethniu herself that pried out her own eye.

Perhaps the Blackstaff plants something like a Shadow itself, and that was what Eb was revealing during the battle?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The voluntary loss of an eye as a sacrifice to gain power is a well trod trope in Myth, ask Odin.

[Yuillegan]

I assumed it was Ethniu herself that pried out her own eye.

Perhaps the Blackstaff plants something like a Shadow itself, and that was what Eb was revealing during the battle?

Certainly possible - as good a theory as any. Makes her even more badass really. But it's the combination of the Eye and the Titanic Bronze armour that makes me think it was set-up by another. She's had plenty of time to attack the world - and Nemesis hints that the Outsiders and their agents are the ones who unleashed her. Harry guesses they are in league due to the simultaneous assault on the Outer Gates, even before Nemesis confirms it. So I just wonder if some Outsider or one of their agents comes along with some gifts of power and poisoned words, maybe a special deal, and Ethniu is stirred up more than she has been in a long time. And it would have happened at least as early as Changes, maybe earlier still. But it's only after Changes the Fomor really start acting openly.

That's an interesting take on the Blackstaff. I merely assumed it was the combination of elemental powers (Gungnir's lightning clashing with Winter darkness) revealing the source of the Blackstaff's power (i.e. Mother Winter). But the idea of a Shadow of Mother Winter planted in the head of the wielder is intriguing. To be that close to the source of Winter's power...would be challenging. After all, Harry would be only getting a taste with his mantle. The mantles of the Queens are much, much stronger and harder to resist. There is a scene in Changes where Harry gets the impression the Blackstaff likes to be used as often and as destructively as possible, and that Ebenezar is struggling a little with it. Could be the reason Ebenezar is careful not to use it too much is that the Staff's influence is very difficult to resist (that and of course if he's using it he is doing terrible deeds).

Or more likely the fact that the Island was vulnerable without a Warden was kept a secret.  It took the infecting of someone on the inside, i.e. Maeve, to reveal how the Island could be assaulted.  As Eb points out in his journal, it seems that a "higher power" was on their side when Harry stumbled onto the job of Warden.  In Cold Days while he wasn't fully engaged in the job yet, he managed to put together a defense of it with the help of friends.

Is that more likely? I don't really see that either the fact there was no Warden was kept a secret, I haven't really come across anything that suggests the White Council were purposely hiding that fact. The fact that the Island itself was a bit of a secret (mostly to non-supernaturals and lower level supernatural types) doesn't suggest it was the White Council covering it up. It's not like they were swearing Harry to secrecy for even knowing about it. Clearly, the more powerful supernatural players know what the Island is. Nicodemus surely knew there was no Warden or why would he have even ventured near it, same for the more senior Denarians, same for the Naagloshii. Ethniu not knowing the danger of the Island comes down to her hiding from the world for most of her life, and being so arrogant to assume she was undefeatable and that mortals posed no threat to her.

The assault by Maeve (Nemesis) and Before revealed a way the Island could be attacked...to us. I doubt it's the only method. And Nemesis clearly had other ways of attacking the Island, all on it's own, the end of Battle Ground shows this. I think we will see several different attempts before the end.

But I think we are both in agreement that Heaven has been helping defend the Island on a higher level, until it was ready/needed to be defended at the mortal level. As I said before, the opposition to Heaven likely is also making their own moves. If Heaven could defeat them all at once, they would have, so clearly the opposition have the power to resist and challenge them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Could Bobs parents therefore be Mother Winter and a Black Staff.

[Yuillegan]

Could Bobs parents therefore be Mother Winter and a Black Staff.

If the Shadow of Mother Winter thing is true, then absolutely.

But that would imply that either we have met a previous wielder of the Blackstaff, or that Ebenezar went back in time at some point and gave "birth" to Bob.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

But that would make Bob Margaret’s brother.

And Bob Harry’s Uncle. Would Jim set us up over 20 odd books for a “Bob’s You Uncle” joke. Why, yes he would.

The Black Staff has permission to break the rules, so a little time travel is not out of the question.

That may suggest that the price of taking up the Black Staff is to give birth to one of Mother Winters children, a spirit of intellect. I bet Mother Summer is the midwife if so . Eb doesn’t know about Bonny,  nor about Lash, so Harry and Eb may be blissfully unaware of each other predicament.

Again the British Prisoner may be a former BlackStaff, and Demonreach the only way to relinquish the shadow.

[The_Sibelis]

If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.

was thinking the woj about them getting 'ancient Mai' accurate in the series had something to do with the dragon heritage emphasis?

[morriswalters]

If Ancient Mai is a Denarian she needs to fire her fallen and Kick Nic's behind for Anduriel.  She's too visibly old.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Just re-Reading Peace Talks, page 19 states that the small wooden skull was prepared for her. Bob originally asked for it as a backup. However, many people have wondered how Bob didn’t spot Bonny growing. Perhaps the answer is he did, but didn’t tell Harry, (because he didn’t ask) but made sure Bonny had her own Sanctum when born.

This implies Bob put Bonny over Harry and was expecting Harry to die when Bonny was born, as happened on most such occasions. It also suggests that Harry has realised this. It may explain why Bob pleaded to Harry “don’t kill me” later in Battle Ground.