The Gods of Pro Wrestling

[K.L.O.E.]

I was thinking about this the other day and I'm almost certain we'll see a Monkey King hair clone or something in the pro wrestling book. Thoughts?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not really looking forward to that book, not into wrestling, so it’s going to need to relegate the wrestling to a sub-plot.

If a god really wanted to obtain worship they would be playing football (soccer), as it is the most popular sport in the world, and let’s face it Pele changed gender and moved from Hawaii to Brazil to do this.

[Redepisg]

I don't know about that...while individual soccer/football players are famous, it is, overall, about which team is the best.  Pro wrestling, on the other hand...

It's all about the personalities, the characters, the spectacle, and especially the heat the wrestlers generate in the crowd.  It's all about the individual.

While I could see some gods being more interested in pure competition, I could see a lot of the more arrogant ones being attracted to the individual focus of pro wrestling.

[K.L.O.E.]

What don't you like about wrestling? (If you don't mind me asking)

I get why they'd be wrestlers over anything else:

• the fandom is specific to you, not a team
• pre-amalgamation you could tour the territories, Europe, and Japan forever and people wouldn't notice the pesky not aging bit
• it's a combat "sport" that uses holds that existed since Greece
• super strength is less noticeable in wrestling as anything can be explained away as a "work"

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not always the team, sometimes you have a player who stands head and shoulders above the team, a Pele, a Maradonna, a Best, a Ronaldo, a Messi, and they are truly lionised by the world as something truly special.

There is no scripting, no stunts, everything they do is real if not hyper real, bestriding the world as the best and it’s champions, they don’t merely have a fan base, they are capable of bringing a country together behind them, and having the rest of the world agog with their genius applauding their own teams defeat.

[Con]

Not really looking forward to that book, not into wrestling, so it’s going to need to relegate the wrestling to a sub-plot.

If a god really wanted to obtain worship they would be playing football (soccer), as it is the most popular sport in the world, and let’s face it Pele changed gender and moved from Hawaii to Brazil to do this.

Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.

Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

any profession where unearned celebrity would do.

[K.L.O.E.]

Not always the team, sometimes you have a player who stands head and shoulders above the team, a Pele, a Maradonna, a Best, a Ronaldo, a Messi, and they are truly lionised by the world as something truly special.

There is no scripting, no stunts, everything they do is real if not hyper real, bestriding the world as the best and it’s champions, they don’t merely have a fan base, they are capable of bringing a country together behind them, and having the rest of the world agog with their genius applauding their own teams defeat.

Wrestling is unique in the way it uses long term story telling to create a mythology around a character or even just a move over time. Plus the careers can be way longer. Just look at Sting who's been wrestling since the late 70s. While the singular talent of a Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona, Pele, LeBron, Jordan, Gretzky, Tendulkar, Hamilton, Bolt, or Ali come along they are lionized but its just a direct cheering for the act and the game or the race. When you have godlike power there's no competition in a race. When wrestling a god could live out the same story over and over again and receive godlike devotion from a fanbase. It's the perfect cover.

Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.

Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.

I could totally see a few being reality TV stars or Actors or something as well. We already got the White Court running parts of the porn industry. There's probably a bunch of various immortals in soap operas as well.

[morriswalters]

I hope it's better then American Gods.  Gaiman is a better writer and he's already traveled that road, somewhat poorly in my opinion.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.

Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.

I'm also, not a fan of wrestling.  However, I could totally get behind the idea of minor ancient deities; and almost but not quite forgotten major ones, reappearing as reality TV stars, but also as so-called Influencers; whether on Instagram, YouTube or any social media platform.  Getting "Likes" seems to me to be a perfect fit for an old deity craving some form of worship.

However, I can't see a major deity like an Athena or Zeus going the above routes.  Pride was also a weakness of some of these deities, so I think they would want to do something that would give them the appearance of dignity or sagacity.  With that idea in mind, perhaps some old deities could be seen on Bloomberg News making predictions about the future of the economy or market, or perhaps as a so-called political, legal or military expert who makes regular appearances on any of the major news networks.   

[vincentric]

While I can see wrestling for some of the battle deities, I don't understand why Vadderung doesn't have more competitors or parallels.

Shouldn't Hephaestus have world renowned engineering firm and Aphrodite a huge modeling agency/cosmetics empire? Is Thoth part of the Librarians?

I hope once we get to this book that we'll learn details about exactly how much power the gods had to give up to remain active in the world.  I also expect to see several different aspects of the Never Never. Seems like the perfect time for realm hopping.

[Yuillegan]

I can see that the idea seemed fun to Jim when he first thought of it, but I think perhaps it's a little underdeveloped.

As Morris points out, it's already been done a bit with American Gods (although we'll agree to disagree on the quality of the work).

I think a better way to expand it (as others have mentioned) would be to see gods in various personas/roles they have taken up. So not just professional wrestlers (i.e. WWE or whatever) but also as modern popstars, business icons, pro-atheletes, models, movie stars, and perhaps even more modern takes like influencers and podcast hosts etc. The amount of people who watch Tik Toks versus how many people would watch wrestling...let's just say if you wanted worship the former would be the place to go.

It would be easier to avoid this minefield though if there was no gimmick, if it was simply a book about gods and had a more elemental, esoteric, weird feel. I thought he handled Hades and Ethniu and even Odin quite well. It would be a shame to parody other gods and mythologies. While I think there is room for such things, and some gods might even suit the parody (e.g. Hercules) for some it would be a let down (Thor) or just inappropriate (Aphrodite). Just my take.

Supernatural sometimes went the gimmicky option and often it felt cheesy and a bit empty. Yes, sometimes it worked too but far often less so. I am not saying I want the series to be all grit and darkness either. A big part of the appeal of the series is the humour.

I believe Jim enjoyed some of Rick Riordan's stuff, particularly the Percy Jackson series, and he definitely payed some homage to it with Battle Ground. So I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that. There's been a few interesting takes over the years; Malazan, Craft Sequence, Lucifer (the comics that were a spin-off of the Sandman, and not the travesty that was the TV show - which I believe some found enjoyable but I found it quite difficult as it was such an awful departure). Roger Zelazny dealt with it several times in differing ways - The Chronicles of Amber, Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness. Each a fascinating take and quite different. Everworld by K.A. Applegate was closer to Percy Jackson but darker and more adult, but also an interesting take. Even the Almighty Johnsons TV show (a New Zealand take on Norse Gods) was quite interesting and often funny, although occasionally a bit lacklustre and a bit dated now.

This poem - The Egg http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html is quite thought provoking. Oddly enough, I also thought it had some parallels with the Dresden Files but that could be just me seeing things. Siddhartha by Herman Hesse was similar (and I suspect inspired Zelazny's Lord of Light).

Jim will of course do his own take, but considering the many takes that have come before, and the world he has created and the talent he has, I very much hope he will take this opportunity to do something really fantastic. And he really needs to get more into the "Why" that the gods have backed off. A vague "humanity needs to grow up" isn't all that interesting, to me. I understand he doesn't wish to offend but perhaps some background to a major event would be good. Relating it to Outsiders probably would make the most sense.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

My theory is that the White God will not permit an entity above a certain power level to dwell within the mortal world as it is too dangerous to reality. Mab is at the limit of the threshold by design. Odin would be too powerful but cut a deal or deals with the White God limiting his power and then taking up the Kringle Mantle to become immortal.Mr Ferro can only exist in his human form.

The really big powers like Hades or the Mothers can exist only in the Never Never without breaking the compact of the White God. The Last Titan probably hid in the NeverNever until her invasion.

If this is correct how can Hades peers interact with the mortal world at their presumed power level, unless they too like Odin have accepted a reduced power level? Their fix is not to take part in major human affairs but at the same time to garner worship to maintain themselves at even their reduced power level.

Have a couple of God’s be pro -wrestlers, but have it as only a wider examination of popular culture e.g. Stephen King is actually the god Phobos, and his “son” Joe Hill is just another in the long line of avatars of Phobos,( all of them horror writers) looking so much alike and that. Have Harry speculate if any of his favourite authors/film makers/comics writers were in fact god’s. If Jim could get Stephen and Joe to go along with the joke and let him use their names,  that would be a lovely meta moment.

Jim has said Thor plays college football, constantly moving around and changing his appearance, so it isn’t all pro -wrestling.

[Yuillegan]

Except of course, for most of human history those very entities have been around. What changed, and when did it happen, and why?

Time is only linear to mortals anyway, so arguably these gods and such beings are still a threat to reality. So was the universe just more able to take it before, or were their others (like Time Lords in Doctor Who) who had to go around fixing it? Or has reality changed on a fundamental level that it means gods can no longer operate in any point in history without potentially harming reality? Did reality get weaker?

You suspect Ethniu hid in the Nevernever prior to the invasion of Chicago. But then, why was she allowed to come through at all? Why didn't reality break down locally the moment she showed up in force? My guess is that it's less about a compact with the White God, and more about how he told them to leave, and the breaking of that rule forces the wheel of fate to run them over. It's not so much a direct response with a bolt from Heaven, but their choices force reality to crush them. Ethniu didn't realise just by entering she was playing a rigged game of multi-dimensional chess (or if she did, she was wildly optimistic about her chances) against the Creator.

I do like your idea about pop-culture gods. I think there is definitely something there. It would be fun to get some other authors involved like his friends Sanderson and Rothfuss etc. 

Indeed, I do remember the Thor quote - I suspect he is leaving himself options there. Although I must admit, I wonder why the Storm God, known for slaying Jotuns, would bother playing football. Would that really be exciting to him? Unless he is barely more than mortal himself. Which then leads me back to the whole "it would be a waste of such a fun and exciting god" thing. But yes, clearly not all gods will be pro-wrestlers.

[morriswalters]

Obviously Elon Musk is one of them. He has his own cult and everything.  But I digress.

I didn't see any indication that the Titan was in anyway special. Certainly not in any reality bending way. I suspect the Mothers stay where they are because if they don't they become blind to what is happening in other  timelines.