Is Lasciel really a fallen angel?

[Mira]

It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor.  Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.

The point is, if the number of Denarians who are Hellfire capable are limited, that narrows down considerably who threw Hellfire at Arctis Tor.  Example, it only three Denarians have the power to throw Hellfire, and only Denarians or wizards possessed by the Shadow of a Denarian, and up to that time there was only one, [Harry] then it has to be one of the four.. Process of elimination. I think it is a little different from Summer Fire.. But again only a limited number of suspects.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s only three Denarians we know about.

Does even Nicky/Anduriel  know where all the coins are? No because of Marcone.

We could posit a Black Council Wizard or Warlock Denarian able to wield Hellfifire who Nicky knows absolutely nothing about, he could account for the known Denarian practitioners and none of them were there. That’s what worried him a rogue coin in hands he can’t control.

We have only seen a percentage of the Denarians at any one time, we have never seen them all together. There could be a small faction working their own game.

For all we know Cowl is actually a rogue Denarian, keeping hidden from everyone, including Nicky and Anduriel. The Darkhallow could have been to upgrade his host and allow access to a much greater power level than the mortal host, or allow an amicable separation.

[Ed0517]

I don't think Nico knows where all coins are at all times - or he'd have never let Harry leave Lasciel buried so long.

I do think eh knows wo all the Denarians are and their abilities. Now, could a Denarian who does not usually use magic give Hellfire to a warlock, different question.  It may be the host body is a limiting factor. Maybe most vanilla humans cannot throw Hellfire, even with a coin.

[Arjan]

I don't think Nico knows where all coins are at all times - or he'd have never let Harry leave Lasciel buried so long.

Not that long for someone who lives for centuries. Having Harry as a denarian would have been worth a few years waiting.

We know because Nic was surprised when Harry did not have the coin in the end of smal favor.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Both are examples that Nick doesn’t have the control over the Denarians that he holds out as having.

Tessa leads a faction already in the Denarians, she is going to be cagey with Nick about the number of her supporters as is he about his. Because of this mutual distrust there could easily be a small third faction of say three Denarians associated with the Black Council willing to let the others do their own thing whilst they play their own game and each presumes this faction is associated with the other. With Marcone/ Namshiel that would be four factions.

Nick gets loyalty because he can get the coins thanks to Anduriel, but if coins get back into circulation without him do they owe him any loyalty?

These are the Fallen, the first rebels, if someone else gets a coin say Cowl and gave it to a wizard then that Denarian owes loyalty to Cowl and the Black Council rather than Nick or Tessa.

What if Ancient Mai was worried about Mouse because he is semi-divine? Capable of potentially recognising that she is a Denarian (Mouse at this point had yet to come into his full power). Look at Mouses interactions with the divine he is “Little Cousin”. She could also potentially be behind My Shadow as she is familiar with Foo dogs. She is old by wizard standards, a coin would grant her further longevity and health something she could not otherwise get without necromancy and her heritage means she doesn’t come from a Judao Christian background unlike the rest of the Senior Council (except Listens to the Wind) she wouldn’t have the same attitude to the Fallen as most of the Senior Council.

[morriswalters]

Why would the Fallen owe loyalty to anyone other than maybe Lucifer? They seem to have a low opinions of us monkeys.  And if ancient Mai is a Nicklehead her Fallen is falling down of the job.  Nick doesn't look a day over 100.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Mai’s Age is known, she is oldest by quite a bit and suspiciously hale, so looking younger would be a problem when we have had foreshadowing for Martha, Listens to the wind and Eb all near the end despite all being younger.

Maybe Lucifer has a Plan B which is not Nicky and that’s the Black Council. Maybe it’s Nicky who is Plan B, he just doesn’t know it (now that would be a lovely revelation for everyone but Nicky) the visible face of the Denarians, whilst the hidden faction maintain a low profile and away from the Swords. I mean in recent years some idiot wizard has more or less stymied him single handed. Maybe Anduriel is in on it, loyal to Lucy rather than Nicky.

If so other members of the hidden faction would be ensconced in significant positions in other supernatural states mortal enough to pick up a coin. The White Court maybe through one of the minor Houses or Red for a half vampire before Harry killed them all, one of the Priestesses or Jaguar Warriors. If they had a coin they would have survived the aging of the blood-line curse for old half vamps. A a pre choice Changeling would be able to pick up a coin, maybe a Winter Changeling was responsible for Arctic Tor. In both cases they age slowly so it would be easy for them to live a long time and not pick up suspicion.

Red Court, White Court, Winter, Summer and the White Council all vulnerable to coins.

[Ed0517]

Red Court, White Court, Winter, Summer and the White Council all vulnerable to coins.

Do we know the Fae and Vamps are vulnerable? Do they have souls to trade? a half red might. The White Council will.

[Arjan]

Do we know the Fae and Vamps are vulnerable? Do they have souls to trade? a half red might. The White Council will.

The genoskwa took one. Goodman Grey was offered one. Harry warned Thomas about touching them. These are all the non/half human coin interactions we know about.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Changeling not chosen a Fae yes, Fix became the Summer Knight a Mantle for a mortal, despite being a Changeling.

Some Changelings have had powerful access amongst the Fae- Sarissa for example would be a potential candidate but she would have been forced to drop the coin when the Summer Mantle went to her removing her mortality. Mab couldn’t have engineered this could she?, knowing Sarissa was a Denarian she manipulated Maeve into killing Lily so the Summer Mantle would force the coin off of her, and put Sarissa in Summer away from defending the Gates in the knowledge she had Molly as a back up Winter Lady?

Actually, yes that sounds exactly like Mab.

If Sarissa was a Denarian picking the coin up to defend herself against Winter, would she have been kumori? I think so. Kumori healed that chap in Deadbeat, she would have known Lea would want the Athame in Grave Peril. She would know Arctic Tor for the attack on it to rescue Lea. Everyone tried to fit Kumori against female characters introduced before Dead Beat, we don’t meet Sarissa (which is a weapon, a Macedonian Pike) until much later on in Cold Days. She gave Mab the idea for the Frozen Ring for Maggie, pure evil.

It’s a Moot point on a half red vampire, you would have to find one first, you might have a former red of advanced age saved by his coin from immediate senescence.

Besides with Goodman Grey why bother with a blackened Denarius when a Peace Dollar would be just as effective at binding him.